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CTS-1
(Fri Aug 29 17:25:01)
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 UPDATED Wed Sep 3 18:45:49 |
Hello, Everyone:
In this thread, I would like to touch on one of the most important constructs of Tolkien’s world, the special, unique, and irrevocable nature of Human death, and what appears to be an almost cavalier exception to it. To illustrate this point, I would like to compare and contrast the fates of two of the greatest human heroes of the First Age, Beren and Tuor.
Most of are familiar with Beren’s fate. After Beren’s initial death at the hands of the wolf, he tarried in the Halls of Mandos. Luthien came in spirit to the halls of Mandos (one of the privileges of being half Maia) to bargain with Mandos. Mandos, while moved (as never before or since) made it perfectly clear to Luthien that it was well beyond his power to prevent Beren from leaving the Circles of the World; Luthien’s choices were to find repose in the Undying Lands, or have a brief experience of a mortal’s life and to share Beren’s fate by experiencing human death. Famously, Luthien chose to bind her fate to that of Beren, and they briefly returned to Middle-Earth to live as man and wife.
Tuor was obviously another one of Tolkien’s favorites. Chosen by Ulmo to be his messenger, Tuor unsuccessfully attempts to evacuate Gondolin before its inevitable fall. When that fails, he, along with Idril, secretly plot against the wishes of his father-in-law to save as many of the people of Gondolin as possible from its wreckage. Prophesied by Huor right before his death to be the sire of the salvation of Elves and Men, he is also the only man to marry an elfin woman of a noble house with the unconditional blessing of his father-in-law (okay, neither Thingol nor Elrond had a creepy nephew like Maeglin around the house trying to get their daughters, but it is still a noteworthy exception).
Anyway, Tuor does his great heroic deeds, leads the remnant of the Gondolindrim to safety, and fathers the eventual salvation of Elves and Men, Earendil. Once his tasks are done, however, kind of a reverse Deus Ex Machina happens to Tuor and Idril. Rather than resolving the “mortal who has married an immortal who has not surrendered her immortality” issue, Tuor and Idril literally sail out of the picture. Almost as a footnote, it is mentioned that Tuor’s fate was to be accounted as one of the Noldor, who he loved.
I see a few problems with this ending. First, there is the unresolved issue of how that came to pass. Where did they end up? Did they manage to pass the barrier to Aman, but were not the individuals fated to “speak for Elves and Men?” Did they founder in their attempt, but somehow Tuor came up with a “get out of the Halls of Mandos free” card? Neither explanation seems satisfying.
However, the big 55-gallon can of worms here is the fact that Tuor managed to acquire immortality, the very thing Mandos told Luthien was not possible to grant to a human under any circumstance. Surely the Numenoreans, with their extensive contacts amongst the Noldor, would have heard of this. And, whether it be the early Numenoreans who loved the Elves enough to want to spend an immortal life with them, or the later Numenoreans who feared death and envied the Elves’ immortality, a loophole in the inevitability of death would have not gone unnoticed (I find it of interest that Tuor’s fate is never mentioned in Akallabeth). The Numenoreans would have no doubt tried to find out what they had to do. Good works? Ar-Pharazon would have shown up at Aman with his best guards, Sauron in chains, and requested his (literal) eternal reward. Marry an Elf? If that would have been the “green card” to Aman, Elves would have had to evacuate Lindon from all the marriage proposals being issued from Numenorean men and women the second they got off their ships.
I actually have my own theory as to why Tolkien did what he did here, but before I go too deeply into that, I invite everyone else to share what their perspective on this seeming anomaly is.
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It's been sometime since I reas the sil' but was it actual immortality Tuor was given or was the historical immortality in that his name and deeds would always be remembered?
"Circles and rings, Dragons and Kings.
Weaving a charm and a spell"
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CTS-1
(Fri Aug 29 21:29:42)
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Elkie, below, quotes the relevant passage. How do you interpret it?
Look- he's trying to think!
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I agree with Elkie's interpretation. The primary thing that creates this conflict is the unshakeable idea that the fate of Men cannot be altered, yet for Tuor this occured. I found Elkie's quote very helpful for sorting fact from conjecture. He uses a good counterexample about Luthien and casts enough doubt on the source of information that tells us that Tuor became counted among the Noldor. I find it to be the most parsimonious explanation, though I suspect you have another to offer.
If we just accept that, yes, Tuor became an Elf, then I can't see a way through it.
Natrone means business 
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Almost as a footnote, it is mentioned that Tuor’s fate was to be accounted as one of the Noldor, who he loved.
I've been meaning to reread the Sil for sometime and you're on your way to inspiring me. I recall them sailing off, but not that he was counted among the Noldor (I'll take your word for it). I don't think this can be reconciled - I would say that no one other than Iluvatar could give Tuor the fate of an Elf. Still, this history was Tolkien's bread and butter and I cannot believe that he overlooked this or broke his own rules. In short, I cannot explain this exception within the confines of the story, but I cannot accept that it was an accident either. I'll look forward to you unveiling your theory on this question.
After Beren’s initial death at the hands of the wolf, he tarried in the Halls of Mandos.
I'm going to reveal some ignorance here, but what was Beren doing in the Halls of Mandos? I recall the episode with Luthien, but I don't know what I thought of it at the time. Beren was human, a mortal - I thought only Elves went to the Halls of Mandos? Don't the souls of Men go beyond the Circles of the World, unlike the Elves who are bound to it?
Great post!
Natrone means business
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CTS-1
(Fri Aug 29 21:17:26)
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Men pass through the Halls of Mandos on their way out of the Circles of the World. Beren, at Luthien's request, refused to leave the Halls of Mandos, remaining there until Luthien could strike her famous bargain.
Look- he's trying to think!
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Wow, thunderbolt! There are lots of Tolkien things that I probably learn and forget, but when I read your post I was certain that I'd never realized that before. Well, if it's in the Sil I must have read it, but I guess it didn't sink in.
Thanks, that clears some things up.
Natrone means business
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A fascinating issue, CTS, and well-researched. I'd like to, for the benefit of analysis, put here in this post Tolkien's actual words, since I've got The Silmarillion coincidentally here at my elbow. This excerpt is the last paragraph of the chapter "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin." The war is all but lost, Gondolin is gone, Turgon is dead. The refugees of Doriath and Gondolin have gathered at the mouths of Sirion:
In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him, and ever a longing for the deeps of the Sea grew stronger in his heart. Therefore he built a great ship, and he named it Eärrémë, which is Sea-Wing; and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.
I've chosen this paragraph because it seems to be the only one that deals specifically with Tuor's fate. Let's deconstruct this a little bit. I'd love for more direct samples, if anyone has them at the ready, to analyze the issue.
In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him...
Did, in fact, Tuor achieve immortality? If he did it seems it would have been something he did after he left, because evidently he was aging just fine in Arvernien. There is another quote from the previous page, prior to Tuor's departure: "And it is said that in that time [while the settlement was intact at Arvernien] Ulmo came to Valinor out of the deep waters, and spoke there to the Valar of the need of the Elves..."
Ulmo spoke of the Elves only? Ulmo certainly was very fond of the Eldar and particularly of Turgon, but he also specifically appeared to Tuor, guiding him to Gondolin as his messenger. That Ulmo would have done so and then not mentioned him or Men at all to the Valar seems a little odd. But, then again, the quote says "It is said that" rather than specifically recounting events, and it could just be glossing over the details. More on this kind of thing later.
...and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song.
Well, it says in the very next sentence that in after days things were sung of Tuor, so I can hardly see how he came no more into any tale or song...I will assume what was meant was that he came no more into tales or songs of that era.
But nowhere to this point does Tolkien suggest that anything unusual happened to Tuor after he left...only that he sailed off and no one heard from him or Idril again.
But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.
So here is CTS's footnote he referenced. Does Tolkien say that Tuor indeed was numbered among the Noldor. He says that "it was sung that" Tuor was numbered among the elder race. Who is it that is doing the singing, and where are they getting their facts? The Silmarillion, while not a direct narrative like LOTR, does generally come out and say the things it means...there are some things that are shrouded in legend, and this is one of them. Contrast that passage to Tolkien's last words on the fate of Lúthien in "Of Beren and Lúthien":
This doom she chose, forsaking the Blessed Realm, and putting aside all claim to kinship width those that dwell there; that thus whatever grief might lie in wait, the fates of Beren and Lúthien might be joined, and their paths lead together beyond the confines of the world. So it was that alone of the Eldalië she has died, indeed, and left the world long ago.
There's no waffling there...Lúthien's fate is strictly laid out in no uncertain terms by the narrator. And this is despite the fact that she lived alone with Beren in the wilderness for many many years after on Tol Galen. No one saw her passing, except probably Dior, and no one would have been there for many years up until that time. Tuor and Idril, by contrast, dwelt among the settlement right up until the day they sailed off. If there's to be anything specific, you'd expect it to be about Tuor and Idril. But there isn't.
Given a little latitude, one interpretation that leaps to mind is that those doing the singing of these tales of Tuor might be the descendants of Aragorn, or his contemporaries, trying to piece together tales of the Elder Days and specifically being interested in stories about Tuor and Idril (and probably about Beren and Lúthien, as well) as a means of examining the values of the sorts of mortals that fall in love with and marry Elves. In a world that is barely clinging to a consciousness of Elven lore the significance of what these songs claim about Tuor might be lost on them. With each passing generation the tale of King Elessar and his faerie wife itself would become more like legend and myth, leaving behind a desire for Elvish essence without the first-hand experience of it that lends discipline to the myth-making.
Which is all a long way of saying "I don't think that Tuor actually became a Noldo...I think that was a romanticization of his legend by those who wouldn't know better."
 Oog make mission statement.
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BB-15
(Sat Aug 30 01:06:29)
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Hi Elkie;
"I don't think that Tuor actually became a Noldo...I think that was a romanticization of his legend by those who wouldn't know better."
I pretty much agree but I'll explore more possibilities in looking at the experiences of Tuor's son Earendil.
"Earendil...with Elwing at his side...and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow...And the wise have said that it was by reason of the power of that holy jewel that they came in time to waters that no vessels save those of the Teleri had known"
What this tells me is that Tuor's ship (which is not a Teleri vessel) did not reach Valinor.
"Then Earendil, first of living Men, landed on the immortal shores;"
This tells me that Tuor never made it alive to Valinor even if he had been carried there in some miraculous way. Also,
"Earendil went into Valinor and to the halls of Valimar"
There is not a word of Earendil seeing his father in Valinor or even he or anyone else in Valinor mentioning his name or his father's fate.
My conclusion; Tuor died at sea, never made it to Valinor and he was not resurrected to live in Valinor in some miraculous way.
The only question left is whether after death Tuor's soul went to the
destination for humans or Elves. All we know is that a song was
sung that Turor;
"was numbered among the elder race"
So, in answer to CTS' original question;
"Did they founder in their attempt, but somehow Tuor came up with a "get out of the Halls of Mandos free" card?"
Nope, Tuor did not get a free pass to become immortal by marrying an Elf.
At best IMHO he just ended up in a different Hall of Mandos.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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lkalliance
(Sat Aug 30 01:17:19)
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| UPDATED Sat Aug 30 01:20:37 |
Hey, BB, good to see you! Good supporting quotes.
This all begs the question, of course...what happened to Idril? And it also begs the question, why or how did this aspect of the legend of Tuor come about?
Well, as long as he didn't end up in the Broom Closet of Mandos or the Dumbwaiter of Mandos I guess the Hall isn't so bad.
Oog make mission statement.
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BB-15
(Sat Aug 30 11:17:53)
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Well Elkie; My guess is that Idril died and ended up in the Halls of Mandos too.
"Well, as long as he didn't end up in the Broom Closet of Mandos or the Dumbwaiter of Mandos I guess the Hall isn't so bad."
LOL, well it's a big building as you know.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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Aule
(Sat Aug 30 12:17:56)
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Good point: let's not forget that Tolkien was telling these tales from the point of someone recounting them rather than someone making them up. He sort of let the stories guide him more than he guided the stories. Not everything told should be taken as fact, but rather as simply the tale that is told - just like every other mythology.
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Excellent point Aule. That is why The Silmarillion is such a wonderful book.
Renewed shall be the blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.
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Jumping in late... lots of good points have already been made... I like Elkie's explanation but I was wondering about a different option: there seems to be some sort of feeling in Tolkien's thought that the numbers should remain even: Luthien ends up sharing the fate of humans, therefore, so to speak, there would be a place free for Tuor to take. The same seems to happen later when Arwen offers her ticket to Valinor to Frodo - although Bilbo does get to go as well, so is one Elven life worth that of two hobbits? And in any case, both of them seem to only have lingered there for a certain time, to heal the evil they have endured from possessing the ring, and then die the normal hobbit death (which, we must assume, is basically similar to that of humans).
And what about Sam, and Gimli, who both are said to make it to Valinor later on? Or at least to sail off to the West.
I guess that Tolkien didn't really have a thorough, waterproof explanation for these exceptions. Maybe they should just be seen as miracles: a temporary suspension of the order of the world. A suspension brought about by pity - which seems to make perfect sense in the context of Tolkien's philosophy!
Disclaimer: this post is not intended to attack or insult anyone. It's just my opinion.
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Roy72
(Sat Aug 30 02:26:46)
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The Valar set these up for the defence of Valinor that would befuddle any mariners attempting to sail to Valinor after the despoliation of Ungoliant. This is what defeats all the ships of the Gondolindrim sent by Turgon. Earendil only made it through by guidance of the Silmaril which got brighter as it approached Valinor.
My reading of the riddle is that Tuor and Idril were trapped in these Isles like the mariners of Turgon before them. They could be in some "limbo" as happened to the armies of Ar-Pharazon, to come out and fight in the Dagor Dagorath.
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BB-15
(Sat Aug 30 13:09:26)
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| UPDATED Sat Aug 30 13:11:09 |
Hi frodolives;
"I guess that Tolkien didn't really have a thorough, waterproof explanation for these exceptions."
1. I think it is important to look at the one seeming clear exception (Earendil) in Tolkien's writings about Mortals being able to live in Valinor. Earendil's fate is discussed in the Silmarillion;
"Mandos spoke concerning his fate; and he said: 'Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?' But Ulmo said: 'For this he was born into the world. And unto me: whether is he Earendil Tuor's son of the line of Hador, or the son of Idril, Turon's daughter, of the Elven-house of Finwe?'…But when all was spoken, Manwe gave judgement, and he said: 'In this matter the power of doom is given to me.'
What is clear is that Earendil is Half-elven. And the Half-elven have the choice of being Elf or Human;
"In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar; but Elros his brother chose to abide with Men."
So, far there are no exceptions to the rule, only immortals or Half-elven (who choose to be Elves) can live in Valinor.
2. What about mortals living in Valinor?
There is an essay in the book, Morgoth's Ring, called "Aman and Mortal Men" (p. 427) which IMHO further sheds light on these matters.
"Eru had forbidden them (the Valar) to admit Men to the Blessed Realm; and they declared also that Men would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would 'wither even as a moth in a flame too bright'.
Part of the problem for mortals in Aman is that there bodies would have accelerated growth;
"Their bodies would still come swiftly to full growth. In the seventh part of a year a Man could be born and become full-grown. But then it would not age…"
But what of the mortal's Spirit/soul called by Tolkien fea?
"But what of that Man's fea? Its nature and 'doom' could not be changed, neither by the health of Aman (the Blessed Realm) nor by the will of Manwe himself. Yet it is…its nature and doom under the will of Eru (Illuvatar) that it should not endure Arda (the world) for long, but should depart and go else whither, returning maybe direct to Eru for another fate or purpose that is beyond the knowledge or guess of the Eldar." (p. 429)
So, the spirit or soul of a mortal does not change to immortality. It still wants to pass into the state of death. So, what would happen to the mortal in Valinor? There would be a struggle between the body (hroa) and Spirit (fea). Eventually,
"But the fea would be as it were in prison, becoming ever more weary of all the delights of the hroa, until they were loathsome to it…"
"Either his fea would be wholly dominated by the hroa, and he would become more like a beast…Or else, if his fea were strong, it would leave the hroa. Then one of two things would happen…the hroa, in full life, would be rent and die in sudden agony; or else the fea would in loathing and without pity desert the hroa, and it would live on, a witless body, not even a beast but a monster" (pp. 429-430)
Finally, Humans were never allowed to live in Valinor.
"Eru and the Valar under Him have not permitted Men as they are to dwell in Aman" (p. 430)
3. What about such as Frodo, Bilbo, Gimli and Sam living in Valinor?
My interpretation of the writings is that the mortals could only briefly live in the area of Aman. I mean by that, (according to the writings) the mortals of LOTR never set foot on the soil Valinor itself but had to remain on the ships. There they could meet with their Elf friends and be healed of wounds but very soon their spirits would wish to pass into death. Essentially, I do not see the mortals going to the West as going to Valinor as much as going very soon to their death. Now, it may be that after death that their spirits may have been allowed to be with the Elves in the Halls of Mandos rather than with mortals but, that is only speculation.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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CTS-1
(Sat Aug 30 17:21:24)
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As always, well argued. However, could the language:
"But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men."
also be interpreted that Tuor is given full privileges of the Eldar, including a spirit which will not wish to leave the Circles of the World (any more than any of the Eldar anyway; issues of eternal recurrence have been addressed in other threads)? I know that this hypothetical involves a Deus Ex Machina, but it is not as if Tolkien was completely immune to that impulse (see, generally, the Eagles).
Look- he's trying to think!
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Between the points that Elkie and Aule highlighted, about the latitude with which all of this recorded 'history' is written, I'd say that Tuor's fate is ambiguous enough that it need not be a violation of the Fate of Man clause.
as for Tolkien's occasional deus ex machina, particularly with the Eagles, he seems to use them when he's in a corner plotwise, like how does Gandalf escape Orthanc or how do Frodo and Sam make it out of Mordor alive? He could have written the end of Tuor any way he chose and did find a way to make it an exceptional ending; but it need not be an exception to established rules, if you take my meaning.
To BB-15, Re: Frodo, Bilbo, Sam and Gimli
I think it's a bit sad to think they lived out the rest of their lives on a ship. Could they not settle on the Isle of Tol Eressea, in sight of the Blessed Realm?
Natrone means business
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CTS-1
(Sat Aug 30 18:31:20)
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"Could they not settle on the Isle of Tol Eressea, in sight of the Blessed Realm? "
That was the impression I had...
Look- he's trying to think!
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BB-15
(Sun Aug 31 01:15:57)
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Hi CTS and Lord_Natrone; There is a popular conception that in Tolkien's world all is magic and that mortals can become immortal. This was literally how people reacted to LOTR when I was a kid, when some people would dress up as Elves in the park and dance to rock music. <I'm dating myself> ;-)
I in no way want to get in the way of people's conceptions about Tolkien. You know what I said and where I got the information from which you may want to explore some day. But everything I say here is IMHO, in my humble opinion. I certainly respect your views on the matter. Also, there are widely known texts, which you have mentioned, that as you say, hint at your interpretation, that mortals could be become immortal in Tolkien's world.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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I don't think I was clear in my last post; I'm in agreement with you. The most I can boil this down is as follows:
Initial question/problem: Tolkien made it clear that no one, including the Valar, could give a mortal the fate of an immortal. Yet Tuor seems to be an exception, as it is said that he was counted among the Noldor in the end.
1) Did Tolkien contradict himself?
2) What is the source (i.e. reliability) of the information that Tuor became an immortal?
Elkie's first post suggested that though it was said that Tuor became an immortal, the fashion in which this history is collected and recorded allows for some flexibility. Tolkien wrote it as a translator and historian rather than as an author, so some thing are told from a certain point of view. In other words, depending on the description some things are interpretation or conjecture of the author/historian. Elkie contrasted these two passages:
But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.
This doom she chose, forsaking the Blessed Realm, and putting aside all claim to kinship width those that dwell there; that thus whatever grief might lie in wait, the fates of Beren and Lúthien might be joined, and their paths lead together beyond the confines of the world. So it was that alone of the Eldalië she has died, indeed, and left the world long ago.
The one about Luthien is more certain than the one about Tuor, so I'd accept that his fate wasn't known to the 'sources' that Tolkien recorded this from. And this allows the possibility that he didn't actually gain immortality, that the story grew over time, that the men he left behind assumed that this was his fate.
Forgive me for repeating what you've already read, but I wanted to make my own position clear (relying heavily on what Elkie wrote). The historical uncertainty of these writings is one of the things that makes them the most interesting; one most always consider the source.
Natrone means business
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cjd68
(Sun Aug 31 10:35:35)
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Great thread!
Regarding the passing of the Fellowship, I too was of the impression that its mortal members (Frodo and Bilbo) dwelled on Tol Eressea, and not on the Elven ships. I have a comment related to this. Though not explicitly stated by Tolkien, many have conjectured that Sam Gamgee sailed to the West after his time presiding over the Shire. I always liked to think that Sam met up with Frodo upon arrival -- that Frodo would have delayed his passing until he could see Sam one last time. However, above the opinion was stated that mortals do not last long in sight of Valinor, making this impossible. I'm not arguing this, but it is sad to think that Sam and Frodo could not have reunited in Valinor.
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BB-15
(Sun Aug 31 11:25:26)
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Hi cjd68; You brought up an excellent question.
"it is sad to think that Sam and Frodo could not have reunited in Valinor."
So, how long did Frodo linger in Valinor? Did Frodo see Sam in Valinor? The essay in Morgoth's Ring just says that mortals could not set foot on the soil of Valinor. It also says that being in Valinor does not make a mortal immortal.
Let me speculate more for a moment.
A. Being on an Elven ship; Let's say Frodo and the mortals remained on Elven ships. Is this so bad? Earendil chose to stay on the ship Vingilot and sail the heavens. We have no idea what life could be on those Elven vessels. To live there probably would have been glorious IMHO.
B. How long did Frodo and the mortals live? I did not make this clear in my post. The essay in Morgoth's Ring IMHO does not say that a mortal being in the area of Valinor would shorten a person's life if that mortal accepts that they must die. It is only when the body and spirit fight that the spirit may quickly flee the body. This could happen with a Numenor king like Ar-Pharazon. But with the mortals who went on the Elven ships, I do not think there would have been any struggle against their spirits wishing to pass into death.
So, we can conjecture that Frodo could have lived a long life. He would have been healed by the arts of Galadriel, Gandalf and Elrond. And his uncle Bilbo had lived to over 100 years. So, the mortals probably lived to the fullest extent of their life spans in the area of Aman.
C. Did Frodo see Sam? Considering all of the above, probably yes.
TO SUM IT UP; IMHO Frodo and his friends are almost all reunited in Aman (with the possible exception of Bilbo dying within a few years after his journey). They get to see within a few yards the islands and coasts of Valinor. They are visited by many Elves and maybe are even able to see some of the Maiar and even some Valar. It would be a blissful time to me. And when the time came for their passing into the afterlife they would have concluded a life well lived.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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I do not think that the passage of time in Valinor (or Tol Eressea, which is where I think Frodo and Bilbo dwelled) can be measured in Middle-Earhtly time. Valinor has been removed from Arda after the fall of Numenor, so by the Third Age it has really become a place outside the normal world.
It also draws heavily on Celtic legends about Faerie, a fairyland where mortals occasionally get taken too - and the stories invariably end with them returning to the normal world and finding that everything is changed, because what they thought of as only a few days, actually was a hundred years in normal time. I think time in Valinor would work much the same way - so Frodo would have welcomed Sam after what seemed only a very short time to him, and Bilbo might still have been alive then, too (if he ever made it to Valinor and didn't die on the ship, given his already very advanced age).
There is a hint of Elven time being different than human time in LotR, when the company stays in Lorien - it is said that the influence of Galadriel's power really makes Lorien into a place where the Old Days are still alive (a twist in time) and when the company leave Lorien, they are surprized that a whole month has passed, because to them it had seemed only a few days.
Disclaimer: this post is not intended to attack or insult anyone. It's just my opinion.
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cjd68
(Sun Aug 31 21:43:14)
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| UPDATED Sun Aug 31 21:43:59 |
Good point, frodolives! I hadn't thought about Valinor time not being equivalent to Middle-earth time. Thanks!
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BB-15
(Mon Sep 1 15:39:04)
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| UPDATED Mon Sep 1 15:41:37 |
Hi frodolives; good points.
1. Time in Aman; I agree that time in Aman would not be earth time since Aman including Valinor are no longer in our solar system but in some other dimension. They are also being outside of earth not bounded by what we understand as the ocean. Earendil flew in the stars and the Elven ships with the Fellowship maybe could do the same.
2. LOTR is enough; As for interpretations. Another option is to only use LOTR as the basis of an interpretation. This is a LOTR website after all. I mentioned this option in my post to Lord_Natrone. Basically the LOTR hints that Frodo and his mortal friends went to Valinor and became immortals in the Undying Lands. There is no reason to change this opinion if it is important to believe it. A lot of people interpret the ending of LOTR that way including my son. And I have no intention of changing his mind about it.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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CTS-1
(Fri Sep 19 19:18:10)
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In Morgoth's Ring, it states that one year of the trees equalled 9.5 normal years. So, does time still move differently for that which has been removes from human lands?
Look- he's trying to think!
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BB-15
(Fri Sep 19 23:43:46)
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| UPDATED Sat Sep 20 15:15:51 |
Hi CTS;
"In Morgoth's Ring, it states that one year of the trees equalled 9.5 normal years. So, does time still move differently for that which has been removes from human lands?"
Good question.
This concept of time in the ancient Tolkien world or Arda has puzzled me for quite a while. What Tolkien has done is to use our measurement of time and apply it to earlier ages in the myth.
1. How would time move or be measured in the beginning before the two Trees?
"It hath been computed by the Masters of Lore that the Valar came to the kingdom of Arda, which is the Earth, five and forty thousand year of our time ere the first rising of the Moon. And of these thirty thousand passed ere the measurement of Time began with the flowering of the Trees. (M.R. Pp. 57-58)
Ok, so for 30,000 of our years time was measured without the Sun or Moon or Trees under the starlight of Arda. Arda was at that time like a huge asteroid and not yet a sphere. There is no writing that I can recall that it rotated. How the hours were measured during this "Days before Days" I have no idea. And how time would feel in such a circumstance I can barely imagine. There have been Star Trek episodes about rogue planets that are not connected to a solar system in which heat comes from volcanic activity. But in the Tolkien world the "Days before Days" has only the Valar and Maiar living in Arda. As they are immortal, and without obvious markers of time, the experience of those ages would be IMHO timeless.
2. "And fifteen thousand years followed after during which the Light of the Trees yet lived" (M.R. Pp. 58)
As you've mentioned the Trees have a different cycle of light and twilight than the Sun and Moon. It's complicated as to how an hour and year work but at least the Elves in Valinor would have a concept of the passage of time better than the Valar since the Elves are born and actually mature at least for a while. Yet, again without the Sun and Moon, wouldn't the Elves think that one hour of the Trees would be one hour? Same with a year of the Trees? Wouldn't it only be in retrospect that the time with the Sun would be applied to the Trees? So, I'd say yes, somewhat like Einstein's theory of relativity, the Elves experienced time differently in the age of the Trees from those in the Age of the Sun.
Again, enjoyed your post. Have a good one, BB ;-)
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BB-15
(Sun Aug 31 10:56:46)
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Hi Lord_Natrone; Thanks for the reply. One fascinating thing about Tolkien is that there are almost always multiple interpretations to an obscure issue in his myth. From this IMHO your questions and answers are excellent;
" 1) Did Tolkien contradict himself?…
Tolkien wrote it as a translator and historian rather than as an author"
My view is that Tolkien often seems to contradict himself but that method he uses is as you pointed out, in the style of a historian rather than an all knowing author. This adds to the richness in analyzing Tolkien. One tradition says this but another says that. You have to balance views and opinions and the exploration can be very extensive. To me Tolkien created more than a mythic history, he created even more than contradictory traditions, he is exposing the natural contradictions in our own natures. Most things in history are not absolutely certain partly because who defines "certain" comes from our point of view. Tolkien illustrates this richness of variety of interpretation over and over again.
" 2) What is the source (i.e. reliability) of the information that Tuor became an immortal?"
This is another very good point.
A. LOTR Centered; Let's look at it from a broader perspective. Some in the Tolkien fan community have come up with the concept of "canon", that is some writings are true to the myth and some are not. Now one Tolkien website took a very simple view; only LOTR and the Hobbit are canon and all the other writings of Tolkien are not. This takes care of the Tuor problem because it simply ignores Tuor.
B. LOTR with the Silmarillion: Another approach is by Robert Foster in "The Complete Guide to Middle Earth" which takes only LOTR, the Hobbit and the published Silmarillion as canon.
In "The Complete Guide to Middle Earth" the fate of Tuor is described as follows;
"Their fate is unknown, but it is said that Tuor was admitted to Eldamar, the only mortal Man to be numbered among the Eldar."
But using that same material, Elkie came up with a different conclusion, that the fate of Tuor was probably not history but only song and he never made it to Valinor.
C. Consider it all; Now what is my view? I have been influenced a lot by Christopher Tolkien's commentaries in this regard. Essentially, any of the later writings of JRR Tolkien should be considered as pertinent to the meaning of his myth. So, I look at the "Unfinished Tales", "Morgoth's Ring", the letters, the essays, etc. There is hardly ever an absolute opinion using this approach because of all the contradictory material. But a few on this website try to interpret Tolkien this way. Using this method, as I concluded; Tuor or any other mortal did not set foot on Valinor. But I also said, there could be many other interpretations.
D. Repetition is a good thing with Tolkien IMHO. I've enjoyed this exchange because to me to get at the complexity of Tolkien, the material needs to be explained in different ways, often many times.
I'll let you sum this up;
"The historical uncertainty of these writings is one of the things that makes them the most interesting; one must always consider the source."
Exactly, Have a good one, BB ;-)
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I really don't have a lot to add here, except it's a great discussion and I'm very much enjoying it. I think I believed all along that Tuor didn't really become immortal, but was simply 'sung' of as being given immortality in after days.
My reason for this is that mortality is an inviolate gift, one that frees humans from the Circles of the World and allows them to go on in Iluvatar's plan. Immortality, on the other hand, is actually existence linked to Arda's Being, and is subject to cessation when Arda is no more. For this reason, to give up one's mortality in exchange for immortality is to endure a loss, actually giving up one's future, and this is not allowed in Iluvatar's plan. For an immortal, to give up immortality in exchange for mortality is an acquisition. Once can escape oblivion, but cannot be allowed to give up eternal life.
Perhaps another way to look at Tuor would be to think of him as a saint- a human who has died and achieved eternal life, and who is allowed to maintain a presence on Arda. As an eternal, perhaps Tuor was allowed to visit Aman and that is why he can be counted among the Noldor; he has truly passed the Circles of the World as humans do, and is permitted to have presence in Aman, but not in Middle-Earth.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Lord_Natrone
(Sun Aug 31 17:44:02)
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| UPDATED Mon Sep 1 14:52:28 |
that seems to agree with what Elkie, BB-15 and others have said about the Tuor-immortal issue: # 153
In the primary story of Luthien and Beren, Luthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of 'immortality' and become 'mortal'...
...Tuor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception recieves the Elvish limited 'immortality': an exception either way.
...As for 'whose authority decides things?' The immediate 'authorities' are the Valar: the 'gods'. But they are only created spirits...they cannot by their own will alter any fundamental provision.
...it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the case of Luthien (and Tuor) and the postion of their descendents was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of the Divine Plan for the enoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.
For those of you who have Letters I encourage you to read the entire passage, yet by my reckoning this does include the relevent portions to the discussion of Tuor's fate. Note that Tolkien is keenly aware of the ambiguous language of the historian writing of Tuor's fate, "But in after days it was sung..."; this would be consistent with conclusions that others have already arrived at.
The last portion that I put up suggests to me strongly that Tuor did not acheive immortality. Clearly such changes are only done by Iluvatar himself, and when he did give an Elf mortality in the past, it was done as part of his plan to enrich the bloodline of Men. There doesn't appear to be a reason in the Plan to give a mortal immortality.
Natrone means business
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BB-15
(Mon Sep 1 10:57:53)
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| UPDATED Mon Sep 1 11:04:21 |
Hi Lord_Natrone; Great quotes, thanks so much.
It took me a few readings of the quotes to come to a conclusion about what Tolkien was talking about. Essentially IMHO it is this. Illuvatar will allow Elves to marry humans when they wish to do so. It is rare due to the great differences in habits and life style between the Elven and the Human, but there is no limitation in this regard. It is also possible for an Elf married to a human to be changed from immortal to mortal since this allows the couple to be together in the After Life. IMHO this all sounds very natural. Let people get together if they wish. In modern terms, this added diversity is considered positive by Tolkien.
The only hard Rule of the universe here is that a Human cannot become an Elf or immortal. This IMHO is due to the Gift of Illuvatar as athene mentioned in which only Humans in the After Life will have immortality even beyond the ending of the World.
By contrast Elves whether alive or dead in the After Life will cease to exist when the World is ended (another cosmic Rule). I am not certain if this ending of the World would be due to the act of Illuvatar as in the Biblical Apocalypse or due to a natural end such as by the expansion of the sun, expected in about 4 billion years. But, that's another thread!
(The only special case is the few Half-elven who can make the choice either way, but there is already a current thread on that topic.)
So, that's my summation. I think that it is also consistent with your thoughts on the topic.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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Sh*t rolls downhill.
Oog make mission statement.
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BB-15
(Mon Sep 1 11:13:47)
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LOL!
Well Elkie, if you've been sending e-mails to Illuvatar.com asking to become an Elf, forget it, aint gonna happen. ;-D
Take care, BB ;-)
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LOL you boys!
I think we're at some sort of consensus here? Tuor could not have become immortal as the Elves know that state. Would you agree with me that he could have died and been granted a saintly status that would allow him to walk among the Elves in Aman? Thinking here of Tolkien's Catholic background, could he have made an assumption along these lines? I bring it up because in one of the Histories, I think People of Middle-Earth, the Glorfindel problem is addressed at length and he is described as being the equivalent of a saint, having died or been martyred, and passed through an intensive purification of spirit, and then asked to come back to physical form to study with the Istarii and become wise. This would allow for those latter-day 'songs' in which he is equated with the Noldor. He would be removed beyond the circles of Arda and yet still be allowed to be a part of it.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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BB-15
(Mon Sep 1 21:32:57)
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| UPDATED Mon Sep 1 21:36:52 |
Hi athene; about Tuor;
"Would you agree with me that he could have died and been granted a saintly status that would allow him to walk among the Elves in Aman?"
Sure, it's possible for a few reasons.
* It's not necessary for an interpretation to include the essay in Morgoth's Ring on men and immortality. If you just take the published Silmarillion and not take into account the other writings, then the argument that Tuor had special status with the Eldar is pretty strong. I believed it before I read MR. And as I've been saying there is no need to look at every Tolkien book to make an interpretation.
* Another reason for Tuor might be in a special category, like a saint as you said, is the letter brought up by Lord Natrone in this thread. I bought the Letters of Tolkien book today. I'm looking at the letter to Mr. Hastings, 1954, p. 193. In it Tolkien specifically mentions Tuor;
"Tuor weds Idril…and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited 'immortality': an exception either way."
Now Lord Natrone concluded;
" that Tuor did not acheive immortality."
Fine, that is a reasonable interpretation. But what strikes me when I look at the letter is that Tolkien just didn't say whether Tuor became one of the Eldar or not. He left it up in the air. I know the rules from Morgoth's Ring; no man sets foot on Valinor. No man becomes immortal (like an Elf). But this letter hints strongly that Tuor was an exception to the rule. This puts the matter more in doubt for me. I still lean toward Tuor's story of him becoming one of the Eldar as not being true but a legend but I'm almost 50% thinking that the legend may have happened in Tolkien's mind. Or maybe in his mind the question was also a toss up.
The good professor does a great job in encouraging belief with limited information. As a man of religious faith, maybe he was trying to encourage a more intuitive method of thinking by his readers. You know, faith.
BY THE WAY; Because of the thread and your post about Tolkien's letters, I got the book at Borders (due to another recommendation on the Board). While at the store I saw a book of essays from the Onering.net and read a few pages. It mentioned the Carpenter biography and I got that too which has an interesting interpretation on the meaning of the Elves. I got another Two Towers for my son because his is worn out. I saw a new edition of a book by Shippey; The Making of Middle Earth I think which I did not get; just too many books!!!
Take care, BB ;-)
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BB-15
(Sat Sep 6 01:09:25)
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Hi Athene & CTS; I have been reading Tolkien's letters which are chock full of information.
I came across this tid bit which supports your concept and CTS' idea that mortals could go to Aman (Eressea). Tolkien explains this in a letter to Naomi Mitchison, 1954.
"But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exeption Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.
I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world."
With this information, forget about my idea of Frodo and the mortals staying on Elven ships. They walked on the soil of Aman.
What does this say about the Tuor and Idril legend? I am more confused than ever and so my opinion has completely gone to neutral. I have no idea what happened to them except they were not separated (agreeing with CTS on this point) whether in life or death.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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but I don't think this bears on the question of Tuor at all. The letter only speaks of a few mortals who were rewarded with finishing their days in Valinor, it say nothing of changing their spiritual fate. I think we would all agree that the spirits of Bilbo, Frodo, etc. all went to the appropriate places for their respective race.
I haven't anything to add, but I did PM CTS to tell him how much I liked his view on the matter and I do think there is a lot of merit to his view on the situation. Tolkien did have a soft spot for certain characters and his romantic heart shaped many parts of his mythology, as CTS did an outstanding job or pointing out.
Natrone means business
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BB-15
(Sat Sep 6 20:40:56)
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| UPDATED Sat Sep 6 20:42:52 |
Hi LT; You are right the letter doesn't specifically mention Tuor. But I thought it was interesting that Tolkien was making all these exceptions to his Rules!
So, while the letter isn't about Tuor, it does relate to one of CTS' original ideas in the thread that Tolkien was making exceptions about mortals getting into Valinor. As he put it;
"the “green card” to Aman"
And on that over all point, I'd have to agree with him.
Your point that the letter still did not mean that Tuor became in a Elf in the afterlife is a good one.
The book of letters is amazing, fully indexed, it's like a reference of the great man's thinking.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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Hi CTS, you always demonstrate such literary precision,  beautiful train of thought.
Paul
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CTS-1
(Tue Sep 2 21:16:52)
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I am preparing an in-depth response to everyone's well taken points. It had better be well thought out and in depth, because I am going to offer a minority view.
Look- he's trying to think!
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Well I found Tolkien's letter pretty convincing, but perhaps my mind is stuck 'in the box'. I'll endeavour to keep an open mind as I know that you wouldn't arrive at any conclusion lightly or with a lack of knowledge.
Natrone means business
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CTS-1
(Tue Sep 2 22:28:21)
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And truly, there is nothing inconsistent in the Letter. I am quite surprised at the fact that nobody has picked up on what I consider the "big issue" problem here.
Look- he's trying to think!
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Natrone means business
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CTS-1
(Wed Sep 3 18:46:56)
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| UPDATED Sat Sep 6 18:07:18 |
OK, Everyone:
Here is my spin on why this gets done the way it is.
It has nothing to do with the overarching systems, but much more to do with Tolkien the writer, how he desired his characters’ fates to be resolved, his fondness for certain characters, and the fact that he painted himself into a bit of a corner on this issue. In order to get out of that corner, he needed to slough a Deus Ex Machina; undoubtedly, his demise before The Silmarillion was ready for publication prevented further integration into the whole system. Christopher Tolkien, wisely, chose to leave the contradiction in place.
I. Tolkien and his Love for Certain Characters
We know that Tolkien was willing to bend the construct of his world for some of the characters that he had above average fondness for. The most noteworthy example of this can be found in “Unfinished Tales,” in The Tale of Galadriel and Celeborn. In earlier versions of Galadriel’s story (and in The Silmarillion), she is portrayed as a headstrong leader of the Noldor rebellion, almost a second point of influence behind Feanor. She seeks her own lands to rule. In later revisions, the Galadriel tale becomes progressively more favorable to the Galardriel character, to the point where she is actively opposing the worst excesses of Feanor and actually had leave to exit Valinor on her own prior to the Rebellion.
I think it is fair to say that Tuor was one of his favorites as well. Chosen as the messenger of the Valar, unique in his position as a human freely given leave to marry into Elfin nobility, co-engineering the flight of a portion of the Gondolindrim and being a hero in his own right in the process- a very favorable portrayal. In addition, Tuor’s story is one which Tolkien worked hard on integrating into his First Age saga; the fragment in “Unfinished Tales” shows a lot of time and effort put into the Tuor character.
II. Tolkien as a Romantic Writer
Okay, we all know that Tolkien had his limitations when writing about love and relationships. However, that does not mean that certain themes present themselves when he is writing about romantic love, and specifically in the context of the four mixed marriages mentioned in his works.
The first place to look at on any discussion of Tolkien as a romantic writer is the tale of Beren and Luthien. Luthien was given the choice between eternal respite in Valinor, or having a brief mortal life with Beren and following him into the human fate beyond the Circles of the World. Luthien chose the latter, motivated primarily by the fact that, to her, separated from her destined love, Valinor would be no respite at all.
The idea that these romantically linked couples should not be separated at death runs through other mixed marriages. In the marriage of Arwen and Aragorn, Arwen had the option of an immortal life and gave it up to share Aragorn’s fate. Even at the time of his dying, when Aragorn suggests to Arwen that she attempt to reclaim her Elfin heritage, Arwen dismisses it as impossible. Her fate, and her eventual path outside of the Circles of the World, has been determined by her choice of Aragorn as her love. Once again, the question would come up: would Valinor be a place of respite if Arwen would be eternally separated from her love? It is a very reasonable inference that, for Arwen the answer is “no.”
For the third mixed marriage mentioned in Tolkien’s works, that of Thingol and Melian, the spirits of the two parties were destined to end up in the same place. Shortly after Thingol’s murder, Melian departs back to Valinor; after the appropriate time spent in the Halls of Mandos (Teleri Section) Thingol will be re-embodied in the Blessed Realm and Thingol and Melian can then be re-united there.
In each of these three couples, death does not result in a permanent separation where one is left within the Circles of the World while another leaves to an uncertain fate. Both parties share the same fate, whether within or outside the world. As the tale of Beren and Luthien makes clear, this idea that a romantically linked couple should not be separated by differing destinies within or without the world is an important one to the author.
III. Tuor and Idril
When it comes to Tuor and Idril, the same forces controlling a romantically linked couple come into play. One way or another, romance is eternal and should not be torn asunder by separate destinies. Unfortunately, Tolkien is in much more of a corner with this couple than with the others. Thingol and Melian could be reunited by a natural course of events. Arwen could choose her destiny under the privilege of being a descendant of Elrond. Luthien shares Beren’s destiny as a result of her one-off bargain with Mandos, consistent with the will of Iluvavar in that situation. But, under the natural course of events, Idril and Tuor would be separated eternally. Tuor would go off to the unknown human fate while Idril would find no rest and peace in either Valinor or the Halls of Mandos (thus precluding the possibility of pulling a Miriel) due to her destined love being beyond the Circles of the World.
I submit that, for Tolkien, it was unthinkable that some of the “A-List” characters who were romantically linked would have separate eternities- it did not square with his concepts of the “eternal” nature of romantic love. Hence the bind: without a Deus Ex Machina one way or the other, there was no way for Tuor to remain in the Blessed Realm, nor was there a way for Idril to leave the Circles of the World.
This position is not inconsistent with the letter previously cited, which noted that the Valar, acting on their own authority, would not be able to act in such a way as to unify this couple. If a Deus Ex Machina is involved, it can come from the very highest authority. It can fairly be stated that the marriage of Tuor and Idril was also a major building block in the master plan: after all, not only was their marriage and the beneficial results forthcoming prophesied in the death-vision of Huor, their marriage also was necessary to fulfill the conditions prophesied earlier to lift the Curse of Mandos. With the prophesied fate of Arda hanging in the balance of this marriage, Tolkien no doubt considered the fates of these characters to merit intervention by Iluvatar itself, especially when the “symmetry of fate” issue above is involved.
IV. Why change Tuor and not Idril?
As stated above, a Deus Ex Machina is going to be needed, one way or another, to eternally unite Idril and Tuor. Either Idril shares in the fate of humans, or Tuor shares the fate of Elves. The Valar do not have the authority to do either; in either case, intervention by Iluvatar is necessary. Which brings up the question: why change Tuor and not Idril?
While there is no direct proof on this matter, I suggest a “substantial contacts” analysis might have been the determining factor. As a first matter, Luthien’s choice is not applicable here; she gave up her mortality as part of an exchange to give Beren a second chance at life after he died. Both Tuor and Idril were alive and well at the time that the “conversion” would have to be made.
Idril had very little contact with humans outside of Tuor. In fact, it appears that the only three humans she ever met were Hurin, Huor, and Tuor. Idril always lived like an Elf; unlike Arwen, she had made no decision to become human.
Tuor actually also has many more contacts with Elves than humans. Fostered by Grey-Elves until his capture, Ulmo’s appointed emissary to Gondolin, leader of the Gondolindrim in their time of flight and exile- all Tuor’s heroic deeds were done as a lone human leading Elves. In fact, the only time he spends as an adult amongst humans, he was an Easterling slave. It can be reasonably said that Tuor was closer to Elvenkind than Idril was to Humans. Therefore, if a Deus Ex Machina has to take place to keep the two united, making Tuor’s destiny one with the (very familiar) Elves is much more consistent than the greater reach of making Idril’s destiny join with the very unfamiliar Humans.
V. Why Bother?
It has been pointed out by several people that Tolkien’s language (“It is sung…”) leaves a little factual wiggle room. Without denying that fact, I consider it far more important that the language exists in the first place. Tolkien was not unfamiliar with having characters literally sail off and not disclosing their fates; this is what happened to Amandil, Isildur’s grandfather. Had Tolkien desired to completely ignore this issue, he could have had Tuor and Idril sail off and not leave any wake (a fate would have also been consistent with the “history” aspect).
I also question whether the argument that the relevant language must necessarily have been filtered through Tuor’s human descendants (and therefore a reflection of their desires) is strictly on point for two reasons. First, the language used by Tolkien does not disclose whether it is Elves or Humans who are making this statement. Tuor had Elf descendants, including Elrond. Given that his life was spent primarily amongst the Elves, it is not unreasonable to assume that they would also have an interest in the fate of the human who lived amongst them and did so much in their service. Second, would not the Elves be in a better position to know these things? Especially if Tuor ended up residing in Eressa, along with many of the returned exiles?
The answer to “why bother” all goes back to the symmetry of fates issue. Tolkien knew that a Deus Ex Machina would be necessary to unite the fates of Tuor and Idril, which was an important point. I also submit that, rather than make it an overt Deus Ex Machina, Tolkien wanted to veil it just a little bit, in order to obscure the obviousness of Tolkien’s relying on an exception to get him out of this problem. Hence the indefiniteness of the language, which allows the reader to conclude that their fates have been united but softens the fact that a major exception to all the rules had to be made in order for this to happen.
VI. Odds and Ends
Once the necessity of a Deus Ex Machina (coming from the highest authority) is accepted, a lot of the minor issues also get covered in that solution. For instance, the issue of whether Tuor and Idril got to Valinor or not, or foundered in the Enchanted Isles, becomes of less significance. The same Deus Ex Machina which covers the fate of Tuor, can cover minor issues such as the exact path they took to reach their fate.
What remains significant, of course, is the fact that Iluvatar carved out a single exception to the Doom of Men. Perhaps the softer, almost speculative, language Tolkien uses is an attempt to balance two interests. He wanted to have symmetry of fate for his romantically linked couples, but did not wish to make the Deus Ex Machina aspect of this too obvious. The other unresolved problem is: how do other men react to this single exception? “With envy,” is the obvious answer. Perhaps the solution there might have been to acknowledge that Tuor was a one-off exception to the rule, possibly created in the Music of the Ainur. One can only speculate how Tolkien might have addressed this unique issue if given more time to work on it.
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BB-15
(Wed Sep 3 23:27:14)
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Hi CTS; very well written. Well let's tally the score;
You are pretty convinced that Tuor became an Elf and made it to the Undying Lands while athene seems to lean that way.
Elkie and Lord Natrone clearly don't think he made it and remained human.
I lean toward he didn't become an Elf but I am split about the question and I feel Tolkien was also. And if Tuor became an Elf it could have only been after death so he could be united with Idril in the Halls of Mandos.
Now your post does try to get into the mind of Tolkien as an enthusiast for his own story. You're right that Tuor was one of his favorite characters since the fall of Gondolin was the first story in the myth that he wrote.
So, I agree with your analysis that Tolkien did not want to simply kill off his character. I have also studied the letter mention by Lord Natrone (to Peter Hastings, 1954).
It is interesting that all of us have pretty much the same information and have come to very different conclusions. But this matter of Tuor can have numerous interpretations and your discussion and interpretation of Tolkien as a writer, and as a romantic is an excellent one.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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bump bump bump
You want a piece of me? Ok but just a nibble
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sinaes
(Sat Sep 13 06:44:54)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
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| by -
sinaes
(Thu Oct 2 00:21:02)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
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| by -
CTS-1
(Fri Oct 24 17:20:15)
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| UPDATED Fri Oct 24 18:00:32 |
Bump
Look- it's trying to think!
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| by -
sinaes
(Fri Nov 7 01:48:05)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless
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It's most unneutral
company.
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