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CTS-1
(Sat Oct 18 18:37:34)
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 UPDATED Sat Oct 18 18:39:53 |
Hello, Everyone:
I suppose that this thread links to BB-15’s nicely done thread about problem relationships and Tolkien ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0167261/board/thread/3648072). It also relates to my older thread in which I argued that Tolkien broke a lot of his own rules in determining Tuor’s fate ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0167261/board/thread/3010460).
A lot of Tolkien’s “rules” concerning the fates of Elves and Men are elaborated on in “The Debate of Finrod and Andreth,” a small complete work which appears in Morgoth’s Ring. I don’t expect that many of you have read this (and, in fact, I would advise anyone to read both The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales first in order to really grasp the background). But, here is the one page summary. Finrod, King of Nargothrond, and Andreth, a “wise woman” of the house of Beor (and a close relative of the still unborn Beren), have a debate which addresses human mortality, elves’ attitudes towards humans (and why the elves are curiously unsympathetic to human death), and the eventual fate of the two races.
Only at the end of the conversation is the hidden subtext revealed. This conversation was driven all along by an unconsummated love affair between the (much younger at the time) Andreth and Aegnor, Finrod’s younger brother (for non-Sil readers, Aegnor was one of the second-string princes of the Noldor; characters like him got mowed down like grass when the war started to go against them. He was in fact one of the first to die, during the Fourth Battle of Belariand). Aegnor desired to remove himself from his principality, which was on the front lines of the Siege of Angband (Morgoth’s stronghold), to the south with Andreth; she was more than agreeable to this idea. In fact, Andreth never took a human husband and spent the rest of her life wishing that they had done precisely that, even if she could only spend her youth with Aegnor.
In the end, it was not some elvish rule against marrying humans that kept Aegnor from going south with Andreth; rather, it was a combination of three things. First, Aegnor had a sense of obligation to the other elves and humans that were defending their realms against Morgoth. Second, Aegnor very strongly believed in the elvish rule (elaborated on in BB-15’s thread) that children should not be conceived in a time of war, and that marriages were disfavored during wartime. Third, like Finrod, Aegnor also could foresee his own death during the war (although Andreth could have spent many happy years, by human standards, with Aegnor before this happened). Tragically, Finrod also states that Aegnor is doomed in other ways as well. Andreth was his one true love; he will never marry an elf. Since she will pass beyond the Circles of the World, Aegnor will find no peace and rest in Valinor. Like Feanor, but for entirely different reasons, he will remain in the Halls of Mandos for as long as Arda exists, with only his memories of Andreth to comfort him.
Amongst other things, Finrod, in his part of the dialogue, states that he considers elvish and human spirits (or fea) to be identical at the time of their creation, as they are both fea created by Iluvatar. Much of the difference in outlook comes from the fact that the bodies (or hroa) of elves are their permanent place in Arda, while humans can depart from the Circles of the World. Finrod also states (prophetically) that marriages between humans and elves are to be rare things, made in the service of a higher doom and hopefully mercifully short (with the exception of the Tuor-Idril marriage, as I argued in an earlier thread).
The details of this conversation raise several issues about how to interpret Tolkien’s world:
1. Attractions between humans and elves. Perhaps this phenomenon is more prevalent than we thought. Besides the three known marriages, there was Turin and Findulias, Prince Imrahil’s suspect ancestry (according to Legolas) and now Aegnor and Andreth. We also have evidence that the attraction cuts both ways: elf princes sometimes find human princesses quite attractive as well (and vice versa). This would be consistent with Finrod’s statement that human and elf feas are practically the same. But, could this raise a problem? Tolkien obviously did not want to deal with the problem of plenty of half-elf, half-human children in his work. The Aegnor-Andreth liaison could be cut short out of a sense of duty by Aegnor- which is arguably consistent with the elvish patterns of marriage and the Noldo Prince’s sense of duty. But, what about the Avari who first met the humans? They would have been: a) far away from any major battles; and b) far less likely to be concerned with any restrictions based on high dooms, princely obligations or the like. After all, the Avari were the country bumpkins of the elf world and by definition have already indicated a desire to “do their own thing.” If the attraction between elves and humans cut both ways, what would stop the Avari and the first humans they encountered, if they felt a little warm and fuzzy towards each other?
2. Differential application of the elvish rules about avoiding marriage and children during wartime. This conversation took place during the “long peace” before the Fourth Battle of Belariand. The Silmarillion has references to the elves “multiplying” during that period. When Nargothrond was sacked, some elf children were captured. And, to use a very concrete example, Dior and Nimloth had three children in far more turbulent times than the times important in Aegnor’s story (although, could there be a difference between Noldor and Sindar on this point?)
3. Finrod also said that humans do not understand that elves have “a shadow ahead of them.” All elves have some concern about their fate at the end of Arda, but does the situation of a character like Aegnor fit in with the plan for the elves? Especially since Finrod his brother is specifically mentioned as one who was re-embodied in Valinor? Or is this arguably one of the reasons the Valar attempted to keep elves and humans separate?
I have a couple of theories on this, but I look forward to hearing what everyone has to think.
Look- it's trying to think!
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i still datnd ny the fact that aragorn should ditch the elf, and go with eowyn
Wiggle your big toe.
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CTS-1
(Sat Oct 18 20:43:39)
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| UPDATED Sat Oct 18 20:44:17 |
I disagree. He's King- he should legalize polygamy, at least for the king! Why should he have to make such a difficult choice?
Look- it's trying to think!
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hmmm, i don't think Eomer will like the idea of his sister being shared
Wiggle your big toe.
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CTS-1
(Sat Oct 18 20:48:06)
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Nah, buy him off. An elf-maiden and a new palace paid for by Gondor (and built to Gondor standards) and it wouldn't seem like such a bad idea after all!
Look- it's trying to think!
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for a palace and an elf-maiden, i'd give up sister faster than somethin that's fast.(can't think of any analogy)
Wiggle your big toe.
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Elehal
(Tue Oct 21 10:07:05)
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A few thoughts:
1. Attractions between humans and elves: It's probably pretty likely that there were some Avari-human relationships that are not known about. After all, very little is written about the Avari at all. Maybe Imrahil's supposed Elven blood comes from one of these relationships? (I'm thinking of the Galadhrim, or perhaps some of Nimrodel's people... which I suppose are one and the same?)
Isn't it strange that in all "known" elf-human relationships there's always a human man and an elven woman? Could this have something to do with how Tolkien saw women, how he idealized (it seems) them?
2. Elven rules of marriage: Is there anything written on when and where these were formulated? It seems rather sensible to me that there would be a difference between the Noldor and the Sindar (or at least between the Eldar and the Avari). Could the marriage traditions have come into being only in Valinor, not before? That way the Sindar (and the Avari) could well have developed traditions and rules of their own, and they could well differ somewhat from those of the Noldor.
Another thing: the whole "do not bring children into the world in a time of war" rule seems to me to be a sort of ideal to aspire to, not a hard rule that is always observed. Maybe Finrod was, at this point, a bit pressed for explanations about Aegnor's behaviour?
3. Aegnor's ultimate fate: I think you're right in saying that cases like this are why elves and humans were supposed to stay apart! Still, I can't understand why Finrod seems to be saying that Aegnor suffers more from the separation than Andreth does. Of course, Aegnor will have more time to think about his loss on Arda, but as it's not known what happens to humans after death, it can't be assumed that humans lose their memories when they die, either.
The whole idea of what happens to elves at the end of Arda is IMO absolutely fascinating, it makes the sadness of the elves so much more understandable.
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CTS-1
(Tue Oct 21 10:18:12)
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I'm just about to take off for a couple of days, but will respond in more detail upon my return. CTS
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CTS-1
(Thu Oct 23 09:43:53)
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1. Regarding your point about how all the confirmed elf-human relationships were involving human males and elf females: that was one of the reasons I found the Andreth-Aegnor situation to be so compelling: we now know that the attraction can run both ways. There are a couple of apocryphal stories relating to Imrahil's ancestry, which are in Unfinished Tales, I believe.
2. Morgoth's Ring has a detailed analysis of elf marriage and child-rearing practices. It also refines a lot of these points as part of a debate amongst the Valar about what they should do concerning the Miriel-Finwe-Indis situation.
3. I think Finrod is saying that Aegnor will never really know peace of mind; that is why he will choose to remain at the Halls of Mandos, as re-embodiment will not give him any satisfaction. Finrod's point is, I believe, that Andreth might find peace of mind beyond the Circles of the World, but Aegnor's fate as a dweller in Mandos for as long as Arda exists is sealed.
Look- it's trying to think!
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Elehal
(Sat Oct 25 01:43:37)
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1. The same goes for me too. Still, the fact remains: all the actual elf-human marriages that came about "for some high purpose of Doom" involve elf females and human men. Is it unreasonable to think that this was (to some extent) a conscious decision on Tolkien's part?
2. Yes, but my point is that the text in Morgoth's Ring deals only with the Noldor. There is no reason to suppose that customs could not be different among the Sindar. (Although discussing it can be a bit pointless because there is, I suppose, nothing written on that.)
3. I agree. But surely Finrod realizes that for Andreth it's just not good enough that she has her memories of Aegnor, when she believes it could be possible to actually live with him, even if only for a short while. I think Finrod chooses at this point what is not the best possible way of explaining the elven way of thinking to Andreth. (And this, I think, illustrates Tolkien's literary skill - the way that Finrod and Andreth at times don't "get" each other but instead talk "past" each other.) Finrod's lofty elven ideals of duty and tradition IMO mainly annoy Andreth at this moment.
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CTS-1
(Mon Oct 27 15:28:00)
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1. I am not so sure either way on this one.
2. Agreed. The text does not cover the Sindar or, perhaps more importantly, the Avari. And, especially with the Avari, the likelihood of the unspoken "caste system" with Elves on top and Humans on bottom, may be lower; this may be an important factor in removing a barrier to elf-human relationships. The Avari are the rustic cousins, after all.
3. I agree that the values which Finrod holds so highly are not held in the same esteem by Andreth. Perhaps the fact that something which Finrod (and by implication Aegnor) would consider to be unacceptable and risky are factors which are a normal part of the human experience. Humans die of wounds and accidents Elves recover from; death naturally parts humans and their loved ones. Andreth would hapily accept twenty years of happiness with Aegnor, and consider it a good bargain by human standards, even if Aegnor considers it an unacceptable situation.
Perhaps the message here is that Aegnor and Finrod are looking for a nearly unattainable ideal, while the human Andreth is much more pragmatic about such things.
Look- it's trying to think!
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BB-15
(Tue Oct 28 00:06:04)
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| UPDATED Tue Oct 28 00:08:49 |
Very interesting discussion. In speculating about this question (#3); why are all the Elf & human marriages between a human man and a female Elf?
I've come to a few conclusions; The myths that Tolkien used for his background stories (Northern European) had mostly male heroes. These original firings of his imagination led to the stories of the Fall of Gondolin, Turin and Beren and Luthien. In these tales Tolkien adds women heroes who were Elves and one Maia. Other women (the sister and mother of Turin) were seen as victims. This was the essence that fired Tolkien's imagination which in his interpretation he balanced the male human hero with the Elf female heroine.
But I do think that Tolkien was aware that there was still a problem that women were not quite equal in these pairings and addresses it very well in the "The Debate of Finrod and Andreth," in "Morgoth’s Ring". The story can be seen on several levels.
* It is a story at the secondary world level of Elves and humans and explains part of their differences in temperament, destiny, mortality, and values.
* But from a step back it can be looked as a commentary of myth itself. Andreth is making more than a personal complaint, it is the issue of women in all myth. Why couldn't she be on an equal level with a man! I sense that Tolkien's sympathy is with Andreth. Finrod's explanations all make rational sense but they don't make emotional sense. Here I sense that Tolkien is opening the door for more women's stories in myth.
* From archeological research we are learning that there was a strong goddess cult in some of the earliest religious objects in many parts of the world. Later it is believed that this female worship continued in such cultures as Crete. However, it is reported that there was a conflict between goddesses and males gods, and between priestesses and priests. And a pattern emerges where the male dominated religious practices either overshadow the female practices or even eliminate them.
TO SUM IT UP; In his myth Tolkien IMHO is trying to advocate for even more of a balance of the sexes. And in the Finrod and Andreth story he is showing that an even greater equality is possible, maybe in a world before the Fall (which this story is also about).
Have a good one, BB ;-)
it's just in my humble opinion - IMHO - 
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Elehal
(Tue Oct 28 04:02:12)
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I agree with both of you and think that Tolkien's background stories playing a part in the human man - elven woman pairings is a really interesting point. And one that makes a lot of sense.
What you both said about Finrod's thoughts is very close to what I thought as well. The problem IMO is exactly that Finrod is talking about high ideals at a point when Andreth would want answers on a personal level - not talk about elves in general but about why Aegnor specifically thought she was less important than those ideals (which is not necessarily how Aegnor saw the matter, but I think it's how Andreth thinks about it).
It's still, I think, interesting that Aegnor should think the ideal something that must absolutely be adhered to, while Lúthien, Idril, and Arwen do not seem to share the same view, or at least not to the same extent as Aegnor. I might be reading too much into this and pressing the matter too far, but I think that this could very well have something to do with how Tolkien saw the differences between men and women in general - not just elves and humans.
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CTS-1
(Tue Oct 28 05:18:48)
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| UPDATED Tue Oct 28 07:08:13 |
First: thanks. These are the kind of responses I hope for when I post these threads.
I agree on just about everything BB said. Also, like Elehal, I am most intrigued by the "two track" analysis where Aegnor refuses to make the pairing which makes emotional sense to all involved, while Idril and Melian have no problem. Idril is the real problem situation here, because: 1. she is Noldor and would be expected to follow the same rules as Aegnor; and 2. There are no "special circumstances" like Arwen's elected choice.
You may have a point that this could be a man-woman issue. It may also involve caste and class differences. I also have a sneaking suspicion that Tolkien did not want to deal with the problem of the disposition of a larger number of half-elf, half-human children in his story.
Also, as I argued in the "Tuor and the Circles of the World" thread (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0167261/board/thread/3010460?d=3087263#3087263), Tolkien was more willing to bend the rules for his favorite characters. And, while Aegnor and Andreth are very sympathetic characters in terms of their situation, they are not the main story driver characters like Tuor, Beren and Luthien.
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sinaes
(Fri Nov 7 01:52:09)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
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