OK. I have wondered this for a while, and I thought The Silmarillion might answer them, but it's just as confusing in there.
There are a whole bunch of different races of Elves, right? Could someone explain where they came from, and what races some of the LOTR elves are? (Elrond, Galadriel, Glorfindel, Legolas?) There is an explanation on pgs 50-51 of the Sil, but it doesn't really make sense.
Also, how is the little doo-hickey on the "e" of Aule, Eldalie, Elwe, and Orome pronounced? It almost looks like it would be pronounced like a French "est" or "et", but I can't figure it out?
Sorry for the ditzy language, but I'm in a hurry (brother wants the comp) and I don't have time to figure out the real words I want   .
I figure, life's a gift and I don't intend on wasting it - Titanic
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Broc
(Mon Aug 18 14:07:37)
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Check out the "genealogy" charts in the Sil... Sorry, I don't have a copy with me, so I can't give you pp.
As for your pronunciation question, try using the "eh" sound as in "bet". I'm REALLY open to correction from those more up on this than I.
Ciao!
~ Broc
As Shakesaid Speare in the Verchant of Menace -- "All that Golders is Not Glit!"
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The two races of Elves that I am familiar with are the Sindarin and the Noldor:
The Sindarin are Wood Elves, Elves who mostly live in the woods, such as Thranduil and Legolas.
The Teleri are Sea Elves. Elves who go to Sea.
The Noldor are the Race of Elves that feature most prominently in Middle Earth. The Noldor left Valinor when Melkor the Morgoth stole Feanor's Silmarils and Feanor swore an oath to get them back or die in the attempt. They slew some of the Teleri, stole their ships, and sailed to Middle Earth, soon after Feanor died in battle with Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs. His sons, and the remainder of the Noldor, stayed on in Middle Earth. Galadriel, Gil-galad, and Glorfindel, I believe were Noldor Elves. When the War of the Jewels ended, most of the Noldor left Middle Earth, but some stayed on into the end of the 3rd Age and the beginning of the 4th.
Elrond was a product of of Earendil the Mariner, a man, and Elwing the Elf-maiden. He and his brother Elros were given a unique choice: Immortality or Mortality. Elros chose mortality and started the Race of the Kings of Numenor, which is another story for another time. Elrond obviously chose immortality, hence his name, Elrond Peredhil or Elrond Half-Elven. So, he is a rather unique case.
I believe that e in that sense is pronounced with a long a sound.
Rohirrim! To the King! Eomer-The Lord of the Rings- The Two Two Towers
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CTS-1
(Mon Aug 18 14:44:44)
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Elrond's parentage is more complex...
Earendil is 1/2 Noldor (it is a little more complex, but for most purposes, one may consider Idril to be Noldor), and 1/2 human.
Elwing is 1/4 human, 1/8 maiar, and 5/8 sindarin elf.
Look- he's trying to think!
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Elehal
(Sat Sep 13 06:47:51)
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The Sindar are also Teleri elves, aren't they? Some of them went to the Sea, some of them stayed in ME with Thingol (and they're the ones that are called Sindar).
As for wood elves, aren't they the ones called Nandor, or Laiquendi? (They're also basically Teleri.) Most of the elves of Mirkwood and Lorien are wood elves, I think, but Thranduil and Legolas, like Celeborn, are Sindar, right?
And PLEASE correct me if I got it wrong.
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I'm not through the Sil yet, but my understanding is it's not really a 'race' difference(I consider that Men, Elves, Dwarves etc) as a locality and background. They're all still Elves. The sections depended on whether they were of the Elves that started on the journey to Valinor and when, saw the light of the trees, where they stayed, etc. Not unlike Men being broken down into the Numenorians, Gondorians, Rohirrim, etc.
It's just to show that the 'e' is pronounced, not silent. It's like saying the letter A when reciting the alphabet...
EDIT: Like when Galadriel says Namarie in FOTR...or some of the words in May It Be Mornie utulie
I'll leave most of this up to others(CTS?) cuz I don't have time to look it up...but Galadriel was Noldor...
Legolas is a little more vague(isn't he always)...his father is Sindarin, but he seems to have been raised amoung to Silvan Elves. He seems to be counted as either depending on the situation...
I fear not the shadows of Men
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If you have the second edition (aka the paperback edition), which you probably do, there's a nice little explanation of just about everything there. The appendices contain a pronounciation chart as well as a chart of the elf heritages. And I'll have to *groan* insist that taking notes is really, really, useful.
 Hand over the Laced Lembas, she-elf!
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Broc
(Mon Aug 18 15:05:06)
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Definitely -- as Lady Greenleaf recommends --
Take Notes!
Read Slowly!
Unlike LOTR, Sil is not a "story," but rather a sequence of interconnected stories which explains the creation of the "world/galaxy" by God [Eru].
Then, Eru creates the ArchAngels and they -- together -- separate the light from the night.
And the creation unfolds with the creation of the lesser angels [elves].
One of the gods [small 'g'] rebels, and is cast out of the presence of Eru, into outer darkness.
And a percentage [third] of the heavenly host rebels and comes under the dominion of Melchor.
And some of the Heavenly Hosts create a "heavenly home" in Middle Earth.
And some of the lesser angels separate, and inhabit ancient Middle Earth.
And one of the Higher Hosts creates dwarves.
And many stories unfold following the creation, through the hosts of elves [the Firstborn], even unto the inhabitation of Middle Earth by Man [the Followers], and ultimately...
The angels [elves] depart from Middle Earth, which "falls" into a state of mortality, and Man inhabits the earth.
Read slowly, and Tolkien creates/blends a Mythos which parallels Genesis, the Icelandic Sagas, the Epic of Gilgamesh --
This is really great stuff!
DO take notes. And then, when you get your TTT EE, Gandalf's "death" and "resurrection" will make a lot more sense. As will the entire LOTR mythos... You'll understand why the elves are leaving Middle Earth... Why they are so sad... Oh, you are in for such an adventure!
Gotta run --
Ciao!
~ Broc
As Shakesaid Speare in the Verchant of Menace -- "All that Golders is Not Glit!"
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Good questions, Uinen! There's a good chart in Silmarillion, here's a summary.
The race of Elves awoke in Middle-Earth at Lake Cuivienen, during the darkness caused when Melkor destroyed the lights created by the Valar. They lived there in darkness, under the stars, until they were discovered by the Valar. The Valar encouraged them to move from Middle-Earth to Aman, the Undying Land of the Valar, there to be protected from Melkor's ravages. Also, the Valar loved the Elves very much and wished to keep them near them. The name of the race of all Elves is 'Quendi'.
Some Elves did not wish to go and never left for Aman. They are called Avari or "unwilling". The Avari are never referred to as Eldar. They eventually populated much of Middle-Earth and are the earlier ancestors of the Wood-Elves, and other Elven kingdoms. Much later, when the Noldor returned to Middle-Earth, they found some kingdoms of Avari Elves.
Of All of the Elves who did choose to make the long, arduous journey to Aman, there are three tribes. All of the Vanyar and Noldor tribes and some of the Teleri tribe made it to Aman and are the called the High Elves or Calaquendi.
The Teleri tribe split into three parts. One group made it to Aman along with the Vanyar and Noldor. One group broke off and stayed in Western Middle-Earth- they became the Sindar (grey-elves) who became the dominant kingdom and culture of Elves. The last group broke off before the march crossed the Misty Mountains, and stayed in the west reaches of Eastern Middle-Earth. They founded some kingdoms and some did eventually join the Sindar and were known as 'green elves'.
All of the Elves who went to Aman, plus the Teleri-Sindar who stayed in Western Middle-Earth and the Teleri who stayed east of the Misty Mtns , are called the Eldar. But only the Elves who lived in Aman with the Valar are called 'High Elves'.
Over time, the languages of the Elves from Aman and the Elves still living in Middle-Earth became different. Sindar became the prominent language of the Middle-Earth Elves, and Quenya was the language of the Aman Elves. When the Noldor returned to Middle-Earth, they adopted Sindar as the common tongue, and Quenya became the "classical" language, like Latin or Greek.
So-
Quendi- All Elves
Avari= never wanted to leave and live with the Valar
Eldar= Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri and Teleri-Sindar (grey Elves who stayed), Teleri-East of Misty Mtns.
High Elves= Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri
I hope this helps! 
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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CTS-1
(Mon Aug 18 21:51:02)
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Nicely put- I was going to get back on this issue in more detail, but you have pretty much covered it.
Look- he's trying to think!
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I think there are still some open questions, if you look at the chart in Sil. It's not completely clear, at least not to me, that the Sindar are Eldar. The Eldar are supposed to be the Elves who have seen the light of Aman, and I've been wondering how that applies to the Sindar. It was that visible from the West coast of Middle-Earth?
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Very well summarized, athene
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Holy crap Athene, you know your stuff. I feel so unworthy being on the same thread as you.
Strange days indeed, most peculiar momma
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Oh,come on, Scretta! Where would our board be without you?
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Probably discussing very intelligent topics that go way over my head. Not hard to go over my head since I am only 5'2". LOL
Strange days indeed, most peculiar momma
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besides...without you
what would Alizarin do with his time?
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Hum.... Good question. Al???? You got an answer love? 
Strange days indeed, most peculiar momma
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Aule
(Mon Aug 18 22:09:25)
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Show off!!
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Nyah! Nyah!
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Roy72
(Tue Aug 19 23:56:31)
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 UPDATED Tue Aug 19 23:58:48 |
Nicely done, and in far fewer words than I would have managed.
One term you missed out is the Silvan elves who I always used to get confused about- Legolas talking of his people says "us Silvan folk".
The Silvan elve are all originally Avari but their Lords are of Sindarin origin, (This was at least the case with Amroth (Lorien) and Oropher (Thranduils father in Mirkword). Therefore they represent something of a halfway house betwwen true Avari and the Grey elves of Beleriand.
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Yes, I did condense some of the information and tried to stay at a higher level of detail. It seems as though the Eldar, whether in Aman or in Middle-Earth, had a tendency to assume rule over the other Elves whenever they encountered them. I also didn't mention the Nando or the Laiquendi.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Roy72
(Wed Aug 20 08:35:40)
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Someone above said by the end of the third age most of them were pretty mixed up and I agree, Lothlorien in particular seems to be a real polyglot bunch of elves.
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I don't think they're really races... they're more like regional groups. But anyway...
Quendi - all Elves
Eldar - Elves who at least began the Great Journey (from Cuiviénen)
Vanyar - Eldar who all came to Aman (Undying Lands/Valinor), led by Ingwë
Noldor - Eldar who all came to Aman, led by Finwë
Teleri - some came to Aman, led by Elwë and then Olwë (because Elwë left when he met Lúthien)
Calaquendi - all the Eldar who came to Aman
Sindar - aka, Grey-elves; were Teleri who remained in Beleriand
Nandor - Teleri who remained east of the Misty Mountains
Laiquendi - Nandor who later journeyed to Ossiriand (aka, Green-elves)
Úmanyar - all the Teleri who did not go to Aman
Avari - aka, Unwilling Elves; refused the Great Journey
Moriquendi - aka, Dark Elves; never saw the Light of the Two Trees
I have my books and my poetry to protect me.
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It can drive you bats, because there is a lot of overlap.
Definitely not races; just cultural groups.
Examples [from the Hobbit and LOTR only]
Quendi - all Elves
Elrond -- his genealogy is so mixed up, he's a good example. I think it is safe to say, though, that he identifies with the Noldor.
Eldar - Elves who at least began the Great Journey (from Cuiviénen)
Actually, this group includes all Elves who made the journey: Noldor, Vanyar, and Teleri. The term originally referred to all Elves.
Vanyar - Eldar who all came to Aman (Undying Lands/Valinor), led by Ingwë
None, because they did not leave Aman to return to Middle-earth.
Noldor - Eldar who all came to Aman, led by Finwë
Gilgalad
Galadriel
Teleri - some came to Aman, led by Elwë and then Olwë (because Elwë left when he met Lúthien)
No examples, though Elrond is a descendent.
Calaquendi - all the Eldar who came to Aman
Very similar to the term Eldar, frankly.
Sindar - aka, Grey-elves; were Teleri who remained in Beleriand
Legolas and his father, Thranduil
Celeborn
Cirdan
Elves of Mirkwood.
Silvan Elves
The most numerous group in Middle-earth; lived in Lorien.
Nandor - Teleri who remained east of the Misty Mountains
No examples.
Laiquendi - Nandor who later journeyed to Ossiriand (aka, Green-elves)
I always had the impression that some of the Elves in Rivendell were Green-elves, because they are fond of singing and wearing green.
No examples.
Úmanyar - all the Teleri who did not go to Aman
No examples.
Avari - aka, Unwilling Elves; refused the Great Journey; might be the same thing as Silvan Elves
Moriquendi - aka, Dark Elves; never saw the Light of the Two Trees
Sometimes was used to describe any of the Elves other than the Eldar; that would include Legolas, Celeborn, Haldir.
"I hope that the forgotten people will not have forgotten how to fight."
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Eldar - Elves who at least began the Great Journey (from Cuiviénen)
Actually, this group includes all Elves who made the journey: Noldor, Vanyar, and Teleri. The term originally referred to all Elves.
No... not according to the genealogy in my "Sil." The Teleri are all Eldar, even those who did not finish the Great Journey; that is why I said "who at least began" it.
But yes, there is so much overlapping. However, I'm sure our own regional/cultural groups are even more confusing. 
I have my books and my poetry to protect me.
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It's pretty baffling. I think I'll will go with athene and agree that a lot of the hard and fast definitions don't mean much anymore in the third age -- too much moving around. What the "Eldar" meant seems to have changed more than once. There are no longer distinct differences between the Elven populations, although there were language differences.
My definitions came from the Encyclopedia of Arda. While I read them all, I could see a number of contradictions, mostly terms that were used to describe more than one group.
Still, it beats explaining the Basque.
"I hope that the forgotten people will not have forgotten how to fight."
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The Elves of Mirkwood(save Thranduil and [sort of] Legolas) were Silvan Elves.
I fear not the shadows of Men
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CTS-1
(Mon Aug 18 22:07:26)
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True. I can't fully read whether they are Nandor, Avari, or a mix. The use of the term "Silvan" implies Avari, but their location would be tailor-made for Nandor who never crossed into Belariand.
Look- he's trying to think!
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When the Vanyar and Noldor were leaving M-E, a few of them didn't make the final journey. For example, Elwe-Singollo or Thingol, was lost and remained in M-E with Melian. He became King of Elves in part of M-E, but those Elves may have been Avari or Teleri-who-remained, with a few other lost Vanyar and Noldor tossed in. So, over time, the Elves living in M-E would have blended their tribes together. When the Noldor returned, there was even more inter-marriage and the Noldor also established kingdoms and sometimes took ascendancy over the resident Elves already there. I don't think we can trace any of the "current" day Elves back in lineage to a single tribe, unless like Glorfindal, they came back from Aman with the Istari. It makes it very confusing but quite realistic because this is what would have happened in real life.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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CTS-1
(Tue Aug 19 18:39:07)
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I was more concerned specifically with the ancestry of the rank-and-file Elves in Mirkwood. We all know they are Moriquendi, but one can argue fairly based on the source material that they might be primarily Nandor or Avari; that the nobility is Sindar is assumed.
Look- he's trying to think!
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This message has been deleted by an administrator
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Roy72
(Wed Aug 20 00:01:31)
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Leggy, the best info on the Silvan Elves is in Unfinished Tales, if you wan to read up on your folks that's the best place to do it.
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I plan to someday(when time allows!). Was that just a recommendation or do I have something wrong?
I fear not the shadows of Men
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Roy72
(Wed Aug 20 08:33:49)
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It is a good read, but mainly as I would think I would have it all in my head about the different Elves (someone above suggested notes- I think it would help) and be pretty confident about the differences and it was always the term "Silvan" elves that would mix me all up agin.
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Lianachan
(Wed Aug 20 00:40:20)
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| UPDATED Wed Aug 20 00:40:51 |
Quenyan and Sindarin have slightly different pronounciations.
The most important thing to remember when speaking either of them, or any of the other Elvish languages, is that EVERY letter is pronounced - there are no silent letters (no silent P in "swimming pool" here).
The e at the end is pronounced the same as the e in the English word vet. The diaeresis, the bit that makes it look like ë, is only added by Tolkien as a reminder to English speakers that the final e should be pronounced - it doesn't actually change the sound of the letter at all. English has a silent e at the end of many words.
Slàinte mhòr agad. Mar sin leibh an dràsda.
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Exactly Lian. If Tolkien were to have written in -say- Dutch, German or French, a final e would have had no need for a diaeresis, because these languages pronounce the final e anyway, instead of swallowing it down to the point of inaudibility like English does. Nor does it become the exaggerated EE (represented by the letter I in 'natural' languages) you hear in the Anglo/American way of pronouncing things like 'Daphne' or 'Phoebe') So: Aulë is not pronounced as the English word 'owl', nor does it rhyme with 'haul'. It should sound something like OW-LUH
Begone foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!
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Thank you! That was a perfect explanation, Wajz and Lian  . Thank you very much.
Me? Go and see the Elves? Oh my! Ooooh hooray! *snort* 
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 Either my french teachers were way out there, or french doesn't typically pronounce the final letters...
The impression I got from the indexes, the 'e' is pronounced as it is everywhere else in Elvish. I thought it would be more like ow-lay or el-dahl-ee-eh...pronounced just like the 'e' in Legolas, Celeborn, Arwen or Galadriel
I fear not the shadows of Men
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That's what I thought too... . Although I didn't know Legolas and Celeborn and the rest of them pronounced their "e's" that way...
Me? Go and see the Elves? Oh my! Ooooh hooray! *snort*
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Lianachan
(Wed Aug 20 13:52:26)
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| UPDATED Wed Aug 20 13:53:13 |
They do, and remember a C is pronounced as a k!
Slàinte mhòr agad. Mar sin leibh an dràsda.
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Oh yes. It irked me that in Bakshi's, they did "Selleborn"  .
Me? Go and see the Elves? Oh my! Ooooh hooray! *snort*
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They do, it just might not sound it to you because they're surrounded by vowels. But think of it phonetically.... Leh-go-lahs...Kell-eh-born
I fear not the shadows of Men
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Hmmm...that works! The only one I have trouble with is Galadriel. That's hard to say the correct way.
Me? Go and see the Elves? Oh my! Ooooh hooray! *snort*
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Gah-lah-dree-el...it's the same kind of 'eh' sound...I'm sure you're saying it right! Just like the french 'elle'
I fear not the shadows of Men
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What's the story with you, a French-Sindar Elf?
I say we flat-tax the Kyoto Treaty all the way back to the Security Council.
-Dogbert
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I fear not the shadows of Men
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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sinaes
(Sun Aug 24 09:45:34)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
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sinaes
(Sat Sep 13 05:54:49)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
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sinaes
(Thu Oct 2 00:04:43)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
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