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Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (Spoilers)
by - never-poke-a-squirrel
UPDATED Sat Apr 26 16:10:37
A second on-topic post - better watch out, this may be habit forming! Apologies if I'm being repetitive, I've missed any threads that were on Grima.
Grima....where do you start with Grima Wormtongue? How many facets can a man have?
I began thinking about what he says - in the film - to Eowyn:
Oh, but you are alone. Who knows what you have spoken to the darkness, the bitter watches of the night. When all your life seems to shrink. The walls of your bower closing in about you. So fair, so cold, like a morning of pale spring still clinging to winter's chill.
And though his words are "poison", they are, at, the same time, truthful. Eowyn - to all intents and purposes, particularly in the film - is at this point a fair and yet cold woman. Grima's insight into a person seems startling. His ability to latch on to a person's thoughts, and deepest fears - for Eowyn certainly seems to fear being enclosed, trapped. And he uses this, and his power with language, to his own advantage. Almost - almost he has Eowyn. But not quite. His clever manipulation of truths does not trick her - when he states that her brother "has deserted" her, he avoids
mentioning his part in Eomer's banishment.
I began to think that this manipulation of people suggested that Wormtongue was a sociopath, or at least antisocial. He seems to show a lot of the associated symptoms: manipulation, affected coldness, deceitfulnes, lack of remorse for actions that negatively affect others. Moreover, a lack of conscience. Wormtongue is out for
himself. His agenda is personal gain, and he will do anything to achieve this; even sell his soul to Saruman.
And yet...
To suggest that Grima is a sociopath doesn't seem quite right. His actions are prompted by the necessity to serve Saruman. And the need to serve Saruman? Prompted by his feelings for Eowyn. That he even harbours these feelings does not seem indicative of a sociopathic nature. Of course, one can always dispute the nature of his feelings towards Eowyn; does he love her? Or desire her? One thing seems apparent from the film - that Grima does understand Eowyn on some level.
But Grima is rarely aggressive. And perhaps his powers of manipulation and language are simply a gift from Saruman to aid his own intents - that is, to destroy Men.
Further still is the sense of remorse Dourif's Wormtongue exudes when he realises that "There will be no dawn for Men". Hardly the response of a malicious, antisocial/sociopathic villain. And while this is not quite so apparent in the book as in the film - subtle enough as it was in the film - when one reads passages with Wormtongue in, he seems unhappy, remorseful, that he is bound as he is to Saruman. Then again, in the books, his remorse only rises when he realises Saruman is defeated, when he sees Isengard destroyed.
And why exactly does Grima throw the Palantir out of Orthanc? It is difficult to say whether it was vindictive towards Gandalf...or Saruman - as Aragorn suggests in the book, Grima's "..aim was poor, maybe, because he could not make up his mind which he hated more, you or Saruman." Of course, he has reason to hate both: Saruman for the way he is treated and used, Gandalf for ruining the plans to deceive Rohan. So which are we to believe? That Grima reaches for what weapon he can, and as he is certainly no warrior, his aim to hit Gandalf is not quite good enough? That he actually aimed for Saruman, and the Palantir accidentally bounces off the railing where Saruman stood? Or perhaps that he is throwing it down to Gandalf, knowing that they can use it for good where Saruman will continue to use it for evil, to help them, to hinder Saruman...to save the race of Men?
Why can he not leave Saruman? To keep with the somewhat psychological tangent I seem to have wandered off on, I would like to suggest that there is some kind of Stockholm syndrome involved, or the same sense of blind allegiance one finds within religious cults. As much as Grima hates Saruman, he cannot leave this man who has promised so much, and may yet still deliver.
All I can conclude is that Grima Wormtongue is a paradoxical character, in every way.
......Any thoughts?
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (SPOILERS)
by - vixy (Sat Apr 26 13:15:33)
I know that Wormtongue rymes with well hung ( sorry squirell had to get that in there)
SAME SH*T DIFFERENT DAY!
Rhyminator strikes
by - never-poke-a-squirrel
Yeah but only because I rhymed it for you!
That's disgraceful vixy! And me trying to confuse everyone with some on-topic posts for once, with you mentioning that I rhymed the damn name with well-hung!
Tut tut!
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (SPOILERS)
by - Eliador
are you sick Squirrelish-san??? 2 on-topics... i'm starting to worry about you
btw: nice rhyme
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing!!!
Re: Rhyminator strikes
by - vixy
SO so sorry squirell!!! But your post was way too intelligent for me, so I had to bring it down to my own level!!!!!
But now your secret is out, you are the RYMINATOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SAME SH*T DIFFERENT DAY!
Eli
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sat Apr 26 13:28:34)
It's all good! Fear for me not! Check your PM's
BTW - I was rhyming a lot of things on the Billy Boyd message board for vixy and TJ, but I think that particular rhyme is my crowning glory
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
Re: Rhyminator strikes
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sat Apr 26 13:29:16)
Oh DEAR GOD NO! You think I should make a new ID for myself as the
Rhyminator?
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you
know...
Re: Rhyminator strikes
by - vixy (Sat Apr 26 13:33:41)
What a great idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I be your side kick plllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaase??????????????????
SAME SH*T DIFFERENT DAY!
Re: Eli
by - Eliador (Sat Apr 26 13:45:20)
Rhyminator would be fine for you
i'll have to check Bill's message board to see what you and the rest of the wackys are doing without me...nobody called me to go there *sniff* *sniff* i didn't knew you were there *sniff* *sniff*
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort
of...mission...quest...thing!!!
Re: Eli
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sat Apr 26 13:50:45)
Sorry - I just went on a wander yesterday and ended up in Billy's board, after I christened Tom Hollander's board...
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
Re: Eli
by - Eliador (Sat Apr 26 13:52:53)
*sniff* *sniff* grabs a hanky...
- that's ok... *sniff* *sniff*
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing!!!
Never trust a man with no eyebrows!
by - Aragorn_Elissar (Sat Apr 26 13:55:51)
seriously though, Brad Dourif is a great actor.
You are very analytical in your appraisal, but one might conclude that the charactor as written in the books is a paradox (maybe because Tolkien didn't write him very well?) I put the last bit in brackets because you are supposed to whisper it!
Again you hit a target firmly and squarely, Nutty girl! Two serious shots, two bullseyes!
Rather than pull my hair out trying to psychoanalyse Grima Wormtongue, I would say that he is whatever suits the author for him to be at any stage in the story telling.
Tolkien wanted enigmas in his tale. Everyone picked up on old Tom Bombardil. I am none too sure that too many people picked up on the enigma that is Grima.
iire ilya lalantila, mitya poldore lyaa falquan
Or just the one...
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sat Apr 26 14:01:22)
UPDATED Sat Apr 26 14:24:09
Yeah, I did mean the one in the book as well, but of course, there being a film and a book now - two separate and yet similar things - does blur things somewhat.
I'm not so sure that he's a paradox because he's badly written - I think he's very cleverly written, to show the extent of the power of Saruman over men. I suppose you could compare the effect Saruman has on Grima to the effect the ring has on Gollum - "he hates and loves the ring as he hates and loves himself"...
I think he's supposed to be more complex than the other villains, to show that evil isn't always straightforward. A lot of boundaries are blurred in LOTR, and I think Tolkien simply uses Grima to blur the boundary betwen good and evil.
Grima appeals to me more than Tom Bombadil did...I guess I'm just a bit twisted - but Grima's not quite enigmatic in the same sense that Tom is. I think Tom is an enigma because he can't be pinned down at all, and he talks in riddles, whereas Grima is an enigma in the sense that he's quite impossible to pin into either category as good or evil, nutcase or under influence.
Thanks for your response BTW!
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
Re: Never trust a man with no eyebrows!
by - Aragorn_Elissar (Sat Apr 26 14:28:26)
Maybe it's my natural "mental defence mechanism" kicking in. Like you I could analyse and analyse til me anal got sore! So perhaps I am cutting short my answer, because if I really got into it, I could get very boring!
You are right. I can see how he is a much more complex charactor than I had given him credit for being. And I see what you mean about the relationships between Grima and Saruman are akin to Gollum and the ruling Ring.
The tease question is how much is he under Sarumans will? He is sent to keep Theoden from interfering in Sarumans plans. To subdugate him. But how similar is that to how Saruman is actually treating Grima? Was Grima ever good with words before he fell under the influence/spell of Saruman? I don't believe that is answered
anywhere by Tolkien. When Grima whispers councel to Theoden, is it him speaking or is me like a telephone for Sarumans words?
I don't know if I am furthering the debate. I seem to ask more questions than answer yours!
iire ilya lalantila, mitya poldore lyaa falquan
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (SPOILERS)
by - Uinen13 (Sat Apr 26 14:33:22)
Oh goodness, Squirrely. I really don't have the brainpower to answer this thread, all I can say is that this is VERY philisophical of you!!! I'm impressed
"And you have my bow..."
Re: Never trust a man with no eyebrows!
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sat Apr 26 14:39:45)
Well, I'm not sure how much influence Saruman has over him - that's the point - it's hard to tell where Grima's autonomy ends and Saruman's influence begins. I think Tolkien avoids any suggestion as to whether Grima had any power with language before Saruman gave him some (which I'm fairly certain Gandalf intimates at some point, though I may be imagining things) in order to confuse the situation further. After all, Grima is a Man. He's not straightforward, he's as complex and susceptible to weaknesses as the next guy...as Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir...
I think when Grima counsels Theoden they're Saruman's words...with Eomer, and more importantly Eowyn, I don't believe that Saruman is speaking through him. I think they're his own words. Is the power Saruman exerts over Theoden through Wormtongue only active when he speaks to Theoden, or is it a permanent thing?
Surely for it to be a permanent thing would be both tiresome and distracting for Saruman?
Ehhhh, I don't know! This is exactly it - and I think it all just confirms Grima's enigmatic nature, that all we're doing here is going round and round with question after quesion!
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sat Apr 26 14:40:52)
UPDATED Sat Apr 26 14:41:30
Thank you, I hope I'm not being repetitive though! I'm sure you do have the brainpower to answer it - even I can't answer my own thread! It's all very confusing!
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (SPOILERS)
by - vixy (Sat Apr 26 14:41:05)
Im actually getting scared now!!!!!!
SAME SH*T DIFFERENT DAY!
Scared?
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sat Apr 26 14:41:53) Ignore
this User | Report Abuse
Of what?
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma
by - Eliador (Sat Apr 26 14:42:37)
even I can't answer my own thread! It's all very confusing!
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing!!!
Re: Scared?
by - vixy (Sat Apr 26 14:43:16)
You and all these "on topic" posts!!!
SAME SH*T DIFFERENT DAY!
Re: Scared?
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sat Apr 26 14:49:42)
Ay me, I can't win, can I?!
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
Re: Scared?
by - vixy (Sat Apr 26 14:56:47)
Course you can!!! At least you got the brains to think one up!!!! I myself are too lazy! But I do throw my two penneth in where I feel necessary!!
SAME SH*T DIFFERENT DAY!
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (SPOILERS)
by - Shicashu (Sat Apr 26 15:04:41)
wow squirrel!!!! what have you been eating lately, some kind of special nuts???
about Grima, i've never seen him showing remorse for the things he did, in the movies, his ultimate goal is to make the king useless and finally have Eowyn all for himself, later, on top of all this, he's humilliated byt the king, which makes Grima even more interested in vengeance.
i think that from the beginning he was a very smart guy, with some special abilities to know people, and that Saruman just helped him a little bit to get really good at manipulating and catching someone else's weaknesses, fears, etc.
I think that with Saruman, he felt some kind of loyalty, because probably the wizard helped him to get where he was before everything started to go wrong for him, and that he hoped that he would get something good out of their "relationship", but when he realized that all he was promised went down the drain, he finally got his vengeance, but i think that he kept his hope for the wizard untill the last minute, if not from loyalty, from the fear he felt for him, but when Saruman was defeated by the apparently harmless hobbits, he lost all hope, and decided to kill the old man.
This time, we didn't forget the gravy!
Thanks Shica
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sat Apr 26 15:23:51)
Yes, special nuts, I got them from the same supplier as the giant cotton-bud suppliers.
If you look carefully in the film, when Saruman reveals his army to Grima, there's a tear that rolls down his face, a single tear, when Saruman says "there will be no dawn for Men". I personally interpreted that as some remorse on Wormtongue's part.
Yeah, I think there's a strange mixture of fear, loyalty, hope and hatred on Grima's part with regard to the relationship with Saruman too. Thanks for your response
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
Re: Thanks Shica
by - Eliador (Sat Apr 26 15:30:59)
UPDATED Sat Apr 26 15:31:45
Finally something i can comment!!!!
i agree with squirrelish-ninja...i think that's remorse...end of comment
“... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort
of...mission...quest...thing!!!
Re: Thanks Shica
by - Shicashu (Sat Apr 26 15:34:45)
so now she's a ninja????? ok!!!!
that tear, IMO, was of amazement for the big bad army, he was giving Saruman all the tools and tips to destroy Theoden, and all they needed was a really bis army, and just when he least expected it, his dream came true, that's the way i saw it.
This time, we didn't forget the gravy!
Re: Thanks Shica
by - Eliador (Sat Apr 26 15:38:26)
so now she's a ninja?????
you hadn't get it yet???
in what planet do you live???
*concentrate...shica is trying to make me think*
*my brain hurts*
- ok....
i don't agree with you
-look at the man's face: it not like he has a big smile of joy...his face says: "What have i done????"
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing!!!
Re: Thanks Shica
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sat Apr 26 15:39:16)
I dunno, I just didn't see it as a tear of delight, but it's all subjective like, innit??
I've always been a ninja silly Shica!
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
Re: Thanks Shica
by - Alizarin (Sat Apr 26 15:39:55)
No it doesn't say that - he is simply in awe...but what kind of awe is very difficult to determine. There is no obvious sign of guilt.
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!
Re: Thanks Shica
by - Eliador (Sat Apr 26 15:42:43)
i still think it shows guilt...but that's just the way i see it...
“... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort
of...mission...quest...thing!!!
Re: Thanks Shica
by - Shicashu (Sat Apr 26 15:42:45)
the squirrel san thing was more like karate than ninja!!!!
i'm really sorry about making you think!!!!
and about the guy's face, i really wouldnt like to see him all happy and smiling, i dont think he would have such a lovely smile, but you could be right, i dont know!!!!
This time, we didn't forget the gravy!
Re: Thanks Shica
by - Eliador (Sat Apr 26 15:43:50
ninja & jedi and trained by a nazgul
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing!!!
Re: Thanks Shica
by - Eliador (Sat Apr 26 15:45:29)
don't worry..it's kind of to think...i just don't want to do it very often...don't want to make it a habit
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort
of...mission...quest...thing!!!
Re: Thanks Shica
by - Shicashu (Sat Apr 26 15:45:44)
by a crazy nazgul if i may add!!!!
This time, we didn't forget the gravy!
Re: Thanks Shica
by - Eliador (Sat Apr 26 15:46:48)
at least it wasn't by a caquetic narrator
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort
of...mission...quest...thing!!!
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (SPOILERS)
by - Alizarin (Sat Apr 26 16:22:24)
I kinda like Grima, but have never really attempted to interpret him.
You touch on the idea that he is potentially anti-social, but I'd say it's more of a case that Grima is a social misfit. There is no back history to work with, but I kinda guess he is an incompetent nerd - never able to fit in properly with his peers, yet incredibly
intelligent. That's quite common in society I believe (I'm no sociologist or psychologist); the hyper-intelligent idiot: academic ability doesn't provide them with more common societal traits. They can understand anything you throw at them, except how to talk shop with the jocks; how to chat up a member of the opposite sex - they don't have this capacity to 'lower' themselves to the same level as those who are average or 'normal' and most likely become quite outcast in their formative years.
And yet their intelligence can serve them well in many other ways that society allows - mainly in that they are capable of being deeply analytical. So they become scientists, surgeons, diplomats, and so on - jobs which demand the ability to reason and read information in a statistical manner more than it relies on people skills.
I know what I mean...hope it's making sense so far
In Grima's case, he has developed an ability to read situations and manipulate them to his advantage...but he still has something missing, a part of his personality that excludes him from those around him. He still hasn;t acheived true power, and he hasn't gotten laid: he is highly intelligent, but he lacks those 'common' people skills so important to function and progress in society and become accepted. Plus he's not too pretty, and for the society he is a part of (the tall blonde, good looking Norse-type) this would likely affect his position or standing - the most noble people can often be the most conceited; and very few societies can claim to be wholly accepting.
That is something that can be seen daily in most parts of the world - Western society is particularly shallow when it comes to it's appraisal of it's citizens: ask anyone in Hollywood - look at how many magazines there are about hair and make-up and fashion - ask any Goth how easy a time they have in school and blah-de-blah-de-blah.
Where I'm going with this is: Grima is the social outcast who has intellectual ability but lacks something that society would determine as 'the norm'; he can never fit in and yet he tries so hard - and perhaps over time he has become so bitter and twisted that despite he simply sees nothing but hatred for his fellow man - 'don't get mad, get even'.
Saruman represents a higher order, something to aspire to, and like Grima has a powerful command of language - possibly Grima thinks this is the answer to all his woes...he actually probably believes that he is doing some good because he wants to achieve so much for himself, and here is the highest order of an elite race showing him favour. He'd be easy to convince purely through desire, and with Saruman being so deceitful in any case, Grima probably didn't stand a chance.
But he always has a little part of him looking for that acceptance, so even though he goes along with Saruman's plans, when they fail and the gravity of his wishes / Saruman's actions become apparent, he collapses inside. He's now lost because all he ever wanted was to be a part of something GOOD, and now he has not only burnt his
bridges (he messed up to begin with / now those crazy plans have failed), but he also realises what a terrible threat he has become to that which he always envied and admired. He has become worse than any of those whom he despised, he has allowed himself to become twisted into something so rotten and far removed from that which he yearned to be that he gives up.
From this point on he resigns himself to whatever fate throws at him - he becomes a lapdog to Saruman because that's all he can ever be.
I think perhaps, Grima broke his own heart.
Al
:)
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (Spoilers)
by - sinaes (Sat Apr 26 16:30:44)
wow squirrel great post. keep eating what they've been feeding you
as to grima, i think he is simply a mirror of saruman. although not necessarily an evil man by nature, he has been tempted to join evil because he believes it is the only way to protect what he loves ... just as saruman believes it is the only way he can win.
Grima's tear at discovering saruman's uruk army clearly illustrates that grima was always acting out of some sense of compassion. He never expected that helping Saruman would actually destroy his people. I think Grima may have had Rohan's best interests in mind though he wasn't wise enough to see that helping Saruman was the wrong choice.
Griiiima
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sat Apr 26 16:39:47)
Bloody hell Al, that's a big 'un!
Right. Where to start with that...I picked Grima to have a pick-him-to-pieces session because that moment I mentioned in the opening post hit me, and because I like to look at the more minor characters. But that's beside the point! (I'm just trying to put off having to answer you! )
I think he does have anti-social tendencies, but I think what I was reaching for was what you said - a social misfit. Which, to an extent, involves these anti-social tendencies. You pretty much voiced there what I was thinking but missed out when I started off. I think the nature of an outcast is often to undermine those who have deemed him/her an outcast, and as such, to abuse them in some way. Perhaps he doesn't have people skills, and perhaps he just doesn't fit into a society of good-looking and physically able people. I think you're right in your assessment that he looks to Saruman to make him fit in - or at least to make him feel like he fits in. But is he a victim of society? A victim of Saruman's ruthless mind, a character who could be compared to that of a cult leader? A victim of his own intelligence, aspirations and neuroses?
BTW -
ask any Goth how easy a time they have in school and blah-de-blah-de-blah.
While I wasn't quite a Goth at school, I was never your average teen girl - I once dyed my hair bright red and got a hell of a lot of grief off my mother for it - but nobody in school ever gave me a hard time, in spite of the fact I was your classic school geek/achiever. I think it depends on the person as to what extent their situation reaches. I think I frightened people into giving me some respect though...
I think perhaps, Grima broke his own heart.
I'd say that was part of human nature, to break your own heart with dreams you can never realise.
Cheers again Mighty Al
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (Spoilers)
by - never-poke-a-squirrel
Thanks sinaes
They've been feeding me marshmallows.
I don't know that he's a mirror of Saruman...I find that thought a bit disturbing. After all, Saruman is after ultimate power; Grima just wants the fit bird he's had his dirty little peepers on for a while.
I do think that PJ has gone for the jugular a bit with the whole corrupted-but-not-necessarily-evil approach!
Acting out of compassion? I'd have said the opposite personally. To me, Grima is acting out of selfishness, wanting to gain the things he's denied, and although his intention was never one of total destruction, he went along with whatever Saruman said because he'd been promised...certain things. I don't think he had Rohan's best interests in mind - I think he had his own best interests in mind, and he only realises the folly of following Saruman when Saruman reveals his intent to wipe out Grima's race.
I've a feeling that last sentence got a bit incoherent...
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
Re: Griiiima
by - Alizarin (Sat Apr 26 17:07:28)
I like to keep my furry friends happy
I'm glad we're on the same wavelength here, pretty much.
Perhaps he doesn't have people skills, and perhaps he just doesn't fit into a society of good-looking and physically able people.
That's one of the problems with making decisions on this character, no information: it's all guesswork (hence the 'no history' remark in previous post).
But is he a victim of society? A victim of Saruman's ruthless mind, a character who could be compared to that of a cult leader? A victim of his own intelligence, aspirations and neuroses?
Again, difficult to say - though I'd discount him as being a victim of Saruman entirely. Admittedly there's maybe some parallel between the way a cult leader might find those who are at their lowest ebb and manipulate their need for approval, and Grima's manipulation by Saruman at a point where, presumably, Grima was reaching a level of desperation. However, in Grima's case I think he was more than willing; not so much a lost soul but a cunning self achiever. If you get me
My guess is that it's a combination of his place in society and the resulting neuroses - but it'll never be more than a guess, I guess
I was never your average teen girl
You shocked me there!
Seriously though, everyone is different and you obviously had the attitude to prevent yourself from being victimised - unfortunately that isn;t the case for everyone, and bullying has led to suicide by school age kids on a fair few occasions. Example, there was a young Scottish girl who was bullied for being a Goth and she killed herself (and I know being a Goth isn't the only cause of bullying). On the other hand I vaguely knew this girl at my old school who really stood out as THE rock chick: she had wild black hair, always wore a proper biker jacket, had the heavy makeup etc. But she didn't get any crap because she had three things going for her: intelligence, personality and attitude (when required).
Everyone's different - I think Breakfast Club is the prime example of the kind of intrinsic elitism we're touching on.
I'd say that was part of human nature, to break your own heart with dreams you can never realise.
Absolutely true, and well said - in Grima's case though, he really pushed the envelope and he literally stopped functioning the way he ought to. For most of us it doesn't happen in such radical ways: more a case of live and learn, accept and move on.
Thanks for making me look like I can be serious
Al
:)
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!
Re: Thanks Shica
by - Shicashu (Sat Apr 26 17:16:45)
caquetic??? as in caca???? please, eli, i'm sure you can do much bettern than that!!!
This time, we didn't forget the gravy!
Re: Thanks Shica
by - Eliador (Sat Apr 26 17:17:57)
No...as in old and nuts
“... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort
of...mission...quest...thing!!!
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (Spoilers)
by - sinaes (Sat Apr 26 17:27:05)
I've a feeling that last sentence got a bit incoherent
not really
I don't think he had Rohan's best interests in mind - I think he had his own best interests in mind, and he only realises the folly of following Saruman when Saruman reveals his intent to wipe out Grima's race.
Grima did have his own interests in mind, but I think that includes protecting Rohan. If not, he simply could have gone off with Saruman to begin with.
I believe he instead decided to help him by controling Theoden, cause he thought this way Saruman would have no need to invade Rohan. Sure, Grima gets what he wants this way .. but Rohan is safe too. It's not until after Grima is banished that Saruman decides to attack.
now maybe i'm the one who is incoherent
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (Spoilers)
by - 1dark_angel (Sat Apr 26 21:00:25)
Wow, I have been thinking about doing this kind of thread a lot lately. I have not read everything as I am to lazy but here is my views. I do not think he is the villian everyone assumes. Saruman is very gifted at persuading people to do his bidding. I think Grima was a victim of the voice and never got the full picture of what he was doing until it was to late. He obviously has compasion and feeling for the better, look at how he views and longs for Eoywn. I pointed out in another thread referancing the "tear" that I thought he was trapped with nowhere to go. That he very likely threw out the planthir to give mankind what little time it could. He was no idiot. He would have known what it was for and how much value it held to Saruman. Since he threw it and said nothing the good guys asumed that it was a missed attempt at harming them. I wish there was more in the books about him as his true self is a bit clouded from our view. I think that he had to be a bit of a victim of being picked on and bullied. Not because of his actions but in his abillity to read people and know there thoughts and motives. This would have been a useful skill for him to develope as it would help him to aviod a lot of conflicts. It would also fit with his nonconfrontational nature. He doesn't want to pick fights but aviod them. I find this to be a possible reason for him to have lined up with Saruman in the first place. He would have been promised everything that he could not gain on his own and recieve with it a place of authority. I do not think that he ever intended to harm Rohan. I believe that he was told that if he helped and that if Rohan was on Sarumans side that they would be spared from any ill fate. It is better to be the right hand man of the devil than to stand in his way.
As for why he never left Saruman when he was given the chances. I think it was out of fear. Fear of what Saruman himself would do. Fear of how his people would treat him, as I can imagine they might not have welcomed him back with open arms. And also fear of Gandalf. He seemed to cower before Gandalf and try to shrink away from him at the mere sight. Who knows what Saruman already told him about Gandalf and what he might do.
But in the end we do have to also keep in mind that it was Grima that defeated Saruman. He could take living life the way Saruman gave him no more. He seemed to behave like most in an abusive relationship. You know it is a bad situation. You know you should get out but fear binds you to your spot. It only ends in one of two ways. Something horrible happens to your or, like with grima, you snap and end it yourself.
So in the end I don't think he was truly a bad guy. Just a little misunderstood and misleaded.
"You put the fabled ring of power on your little....hobbit?!."
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (Spoilers)
by - coolbananas (Sun Apr 27 00:43:15)
Nice post Squirrel!
I will attempt a response. (contains spoilers)
On the question of the tear - I do not believe it was a sign of remorse. To me, it was a sign of awe. The reason I don't see it as remorse is because of the scene before, where he was telling Saruman how to destroy the safeguard of Helm's Deep. If he really wanted to save the people of Rohan, or at least protect them, why would he tell Saruman the information that is needed to destroy them? In my opinion, from that moment until the moment he sees the huge army Saruman has created, he has no time to reflect upon his actions and become remorseful. Nor do I think it was instinctive remorse. All his life he has heard words, and plans, and promises, but when he sees the army it becomes real. Because words cannot express the awe he's feeling (which is rare), the 'tear' speaks for him. He is finally able to see his desire for power literally come alive. And maybe what Grima ultimately wants is to eventually become equal with Saruman; an elevation of status that can only achieved through serving him. Grima can never be considered equal in Rohan because he is the outcast. That's just the impression I got, and like you say, each to his own.
Like Alizarin has said, Grima has a gift with analysis. His words do speak poison, not just because he attempts (and succeeds at) deceiving people, but because at times he speaks the truth (like you say Squirrel). This makes him an outcast, and I think Grima hates it - part of his motivation to join leagues with Saruman. But I think to a large degree Grima cannot see his own flaws because he is poisoned by his own words; the line between truth and falsity is blurred. Through his lies he speaks the truth - like your example of Eowyn. And that is his paradox. But this gift is so great for him that he is deceived by his own words. He cannot discern right from wrong because at this stage he doesn't know how to.
And his relationship with Saruman is testament to this. He is lulled by Saruman's promises because they address his own desires. Grima can't move beyond his words whereas Saruman can make things happen. He is trapped. So when Saruman's plans fail, Grima is angry not only because his desires can't be fulfilled, but because Saruman had helped him lose his sense of meaning. We don't know if his throw of the palantir was misuided, and I don't even think Grima knew. His attempt at action is blunted. But when he kills Saruman that is the one action he is able to pull of successfully.
All in all, I think Grima is a very complex, enigmatic character. He's a demonstration of how someone can be lost in their own web of deceit and desire.
How beautiful it is to do nothing and then rest afterwards.
Well put coolb............bu t
by - Aragorn_Elissar (Sun Apr 27 01:07:40)
How well said coolb! I tried, but I couldn't get it out as succintly as you do, but there is a niggle I have. I got into a question asking session with "the nutty bird" and we seemed to ask more questions than we answered, but there is a big question still unresolved (perhaps it never will be as the "mastermind" who dreamt it up is no longer with us).
It's this: Grima works as a "mouth of Saruman" (akin to the "mouth of sauron" we're about to see in RotK) in order to keep Theoden King dormant and out of Sarumans way. How much of his success is down to his own verbal ability, and how much is attributable to Saruman? In the film adaptation, I got the impression that Theoden was under Sarumans spell, that Gandalf had to throw off (nice SFX). Surely the lines are blurred here? Is Grima reinforcing an earlier Saruman spell? Is the words that Grima speaks in Theodens ear those of Saruman (like Grima is a conduit)?
The final question is this: Am I being pedantic, or is this aspect of interest to other people? I don't know any more! I woke up @ 6am this morning, I have been awake far too long on a sunday morning!
ir pain nae dant can bo lin nedhtú an na lin magol
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (Spoilers)
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sun Apr 27 03:48:38)
No, it's all good - complete coherence there!
Sure, Grima gets what he wants this way .. but Rohan is safe too. It's not until after Grima is banished that Saruman decides to attack.
Is it? I'm thinking purely based on the film at this very moment in time as I've a very dusty copy of LOTR - but does Saruman not intend to completely rid M-E of mankind? He does manipulate the wild men into attacking Rohan even before he loses his hold over Theoden and Grima is bansished....doesn't he?
IMHO anyway!
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (Spoilers)
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sun Apr 27 04:01:17)
I agree completely that Grima's not a bad guy through and through, but I don't think he's misunderstood - people understand him more than he'd like them to - I'd say rather that he was a confused character, at least from an audience's perspective. You can never really decide what his motives are, and whose side he really want to be on.
As for the point about abusive relationships - that's what I was touching on in the initial post when I mentioned Stockholm syndrome, though I didn't go into it in any depth or clarity as you've done. I think that's what I was shooting for...that his fear of punishment/death, fear of Saruman's capabilities in this respect, a dependence upon Saruman for survival, his isolation from others, and some degree of (perhaps) perceived kindness from Saruman all contributes to his inability to leave his 'master'. When he snaps, perhaps all that really happens is that Grima accepts the terror and the anger that Saruman has instilled in him, and combined with the realisation that Saruman no longer has any power, he exacts his revenge - or escapes.
Thanks for the contribution dark angel
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you
know...
A further response
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sun Apr 27 04:11:20)
Thanks you big 'nana!
I will now attempt to respond to your attempt to respond, and a very good attempt it was at responding to a rather confusing post IMO!
The tear - I accept your points, but while he does tell Saruman how to defeat Helms Deep he does not expect an army that size - there exists no such number. So in telling Saruman, he is placating his master (see my response to dark angel for some ramblings about the Stockholm syndrome thingy) - and not, in his mind, endangering Rohan - he simply doesn't expect the sheer number Saruman reveals. To me, it is remorse - I don't think Grima ever intended to play a part in the total destruction of Man, rather just to gain some respect and attain some of his unfulfilled desires. Perhaps up until now, he has believed that Saruman's intent was not to destroy the race of Men, just to defeat and subdue them, to gain authority over them. I think what Grima wants is the kind of respect that Saruman commands. I don't think he wants the kind of total destruction and autocratic power that Saruman desires. But...each to their own!
But this gift is so great for him that he is deceived by his own words. He cannot discern right from wrong because at this stage he doesn't know how to.
The sign of an English student this is! That's a really good point.
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you
know...
Re: Well put coolb............bu t
by - coolbananas (Sun Apr 27 04:32:16)
Thank you Aragorn
Is the words that Grima speaks in Theodens ear those of Saruman (like Grima is a conduit)?
In my opinion, Grima is a speaking for Saruman - but not completely. The feelings he communicates to Eowyn are his own, and his talent for speaking well and deceivingly others is something that he has had all along. That is what made him an outcast. He can't contribute in any other way than by speaking, and counseling others. But his desires were there all along, and Saruman noticed this and exploited it for his own purposes. Grima takes aboard what Saruman tells him because he is promised a better existence. When he doesn't get that better existence, he avenges him.
So I think a large part of what Grima speaks to Theoden in "council" is Saruman's words. But this does not mean he did not have his own capacity to deceive; and in that respect he wasn't completely possessed by Saruman. Grima is a confused individual because he has voices speaking to him from every which direction.
How beautiful it is to do nothing and then rest afterwards.
Re: A further response
by - coolbananas (Sun Apr 27 04:48:17)
Anytime Squirrel.
A further response is welcolmed. Especially when it's responding to the response that I claimed was responding to the original post, which IMO is not as confusing as you think!
I understand the points you are making, and to an extent I agree with you...
I don't think he wants the kind of total destruction and autocratic power that Saruman desires.
I don't think Grima knows what he wants for the world; he only knows what he wants for himself. While I agree that his intent was not to destroy the world like Saruman, his power of perception and comprehension is weakened. I don't think he cares for Rohan anymore, especially since its people had never embraced him. He sees the army and is in awe because this is the first time Grima is a part of something that is more powerful than his words. But he's so blinded by his own desires that he does not see the consequences of his actions. His vision is limited to himself. Dare I say it, each to their own
Perhaps up until now, he has believed that Saruman's intent was not to destroy the race of Men, just to defeat and subdue them, to gain authority over them.
That would go great in any essay (if they let us write about LOTR that is!)
How beautiful it is to do nothing and then rest afterwards.
Re: Well put coolb............bu t
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sun Apr 27 04:49:40
Surely his lank hair, pale-green-tinged complexion, greasy skin, hunch-backed short-arsed dentally challenged appearance didn't help with his outcast status?
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
LOL Nutz! you forgot no eyebrows too! (nm)
by - Aragorn_Elissar (Sun Apr 27 04:53:36)
ir pain nae dant can bo lin nedhtú an na lin magol
Re: Well put coolb............bu t
by - coolbananas (Sun Apr 27 04:56:23)
I suspect that must have had an impact on those around him, yes. Sorry for not pointing out the obvious
How beautiful it is to do nothing and then rest afterwards.
Re: Griiiima
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sun Apr 27 05:52:49)
How many furry friends you got?!
Since we're pretty much on the same wavelength where Grima's concerned it's become a little difficult to respond to your thread and pick at bits of it, which I have done with some of the others, just to be pedantic
Let's see....Aha! Do you think that Tolkien just didn't feel the need to provide the reader with any kind of history to Grima, that he was a pretty incidental character who was necessary for certain events to further the plot? Or do you think he purposefully left out detail where Grima is concerned in order to make the reader question that character, to leave him as a paradox? Is he just making more points about the fallibility of men through Grima? Or is Grima a commentary on the complexity of the nature of evil?
Crikey I'm confusing myself with all these questions you know. They keep coming to me! It's like...divine inspiration.
"A cunning self-achiever" sounds pretty accurate IMO Mighty Al, I'm terribly glad you joined this thread!
You shocked me there!
What's that mean, eh? You think I'm a social outcast or something?! I'll have you know, if you saw me at a pub you wouldn't think it was me, and that sentence doesn't make a lot of sense. I think you're right though, about intelligence, personality and attitude. But you are what you make yourself at the end of the day. That's not necessarily true though, some people can be self-fulfilling prophecies. Clearly this on-topic thread stuff has cut some wires in my head, I'm arguing with myself now! Crazy fool.
I've not seen Breakfast Club...um, am I supposed to have?!
Do most of us "live and learn, accept and move on" though? I think most of us cling to our dreams right up until the very last. After all, you've got to have something to believe in, right? If you have no hope, you have nothing to live for, and when you have nothing to live for you stop living. Which would make you...not human. I think.
Making sense am I hmm?
No Al, thank you for making me look serious! Hey, we're doing pretty well at this serious business though...and they all think we're mad! HA! We'll show them. We'll show them all....
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you
know...
Re: A further response
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sun Apr 27 05:55:54)
I think we could go round and round in circles forever trying to convince each other that we're looking at it the right way...when really, truth be told, life itself is subjective, so how are we supposed to agree on something as trivial as a single tear? Ooh I've gone and gotten all damned philosophical. Damn me damn me damn me.
That would go great in any essay (if they let us write about LOTR that is!)
I can get away with writing about LOTR - I have done twice so far, but I don't think I'll be able to do it again...just when I'm inspired as well! They'd never let me do a character analysis anyway, god forbid, that's not convoluted enough for them.
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you
know...
Re: A further response
by - coolbananas (Sun Apr 27 06:30:44)
Y'know, I was thinking the same thing. But I see where you're coming from (is that safe?) And it seems you know where I'm coming from.
It was nice - two unemployed English lit students trying to convince each other two different arguments. If only my uni's English department can see the wonderful discussion LOTR engenders. Until then, I'll be stuck studying some obscure author who is boring as cr*p. (Not that there's anything wrong with obscure authors...)
Kudos for your on-topic posts Squirrel!
How beautiful it is to do nothing and then rest afterwards.
Re: A further response
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sun Apr 27 06:34:06)
Print some of the arguments out then, and post them up round the department. Failing that you could just show them to a tutor...might help...
It is indeed safe to see where I'm coming from. Just don't go there.
Come into the light Carol-Anne, come into the liiiiiiight
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
Re: A further response
by - coolbananas (Sun Apr 27 06:40:29)
All right. I have a new mission: Operation Lord of the Rings-ify my department. However, if I can't even think of a good title for the mission, how on earth am I going to succeed?
Ok, I won't venture to the place where squirrels roam...bananas are too fragile, especially cool ones. Squirrels don't eat bananas do they?
How beautiful it is to do nothing and then rest afterwards.
How about...
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sun Apr 27 08:03:29)
Operation Grima?
After all, it's this using-words-to-manipulate thing again!
No, best not, the nuts are too hard for squidgy bananas.
Squirrels eating bananas? Hmmmm....
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
Re: Griiiima
by - Alizarin (Sun Apr 27 19:29:05)
Let's see....Aha! Do you think that Tolkien just didn't feel the need to provide the reader with any kind of history to Grima, that he was a pretty incidental character who was necessary for certain events to further the plot? Or do you think he purposefully left out detail where Grima is concerned in order to make the reader question that character, to leave him as a paradox? Is he just making more points about the fallibility of men through Grima? Or is Grima a commentary on the complexity of the nature of evil?
Jeezo! Want to know what the question of the answer to life, the universe and everything is while you're at it?
Honestly, I think Tolkien developed the character late on and never fleshed him out fully - a bit like Arwen. What was he striving for with Grima? Perhaps your last two suggestions fit: fallibility (without spoiling things for others, think about the race of the characters who FAIL ); and the nature of evil / power / temptation & weakness is a given I reckon, because it's a running theme throughout the entire book.
I'm terribly glad you joined this thread!
Thanks
I suggest you watch Breakfast Club - IMO opinion a great movie because it's funny and it looks at the divisions we create for ourselves in society.
Re: 'moving on' - in real life, you might cling to a dream, but you still realise that you have to make the best of what you have: whether you continue working towards the dream or accept defeat and move onto another dream is irrelevant. In Grima's case he pushed his luck too far and when it all came crashing down around him he became a hollow apparition of his former self: he let his dreams overpower his reality. Instead of realising his problem and removing himself from the situation he simply gave up and followed Saruman around as though he had no other choice.
In the real world this might be akin to having a nervous breakdown or some kind of mental relapse instead of being strong enough to start trying to rebuild your life.
The seriousness must be rubbing off - I've done a post myself!
Al
:)
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (Spoilers)
by - fernie_lotz (Sat May 3 13:37:31)
And you have my beaux
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (Spoilers)
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sat May 3 13:39:09)
Did you miss this when I posted it?!
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you
know...
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (Spoilers)
by - fernie_lotz (Sat May 3 13:42:53)
Believe it or not
And you have my beaux
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (Spoilers)
by - never-poke-a-squirrel (Sat May 3 13:57:02)
Well it's a week old, let's celebrate!
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you
know...
Re: Grima Wormtongue: Enigma (Spoilers)
by - fernie_lotz (Sat May 3 14:02:03)
?????
And you have my beaux
bravenet.com