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CTS-1
(Wed Sep 10 17:27:10)
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 UPDATED Wed Sep 10 19:45:04 |
Hello, Everyone:
In this thread, I invite discussion on the creation of the two sentient races which are not Children of Iluvatar. The source material is the chapter “Of Aule and Yavanna,” in the Silmarillion.
The story of Aule and the creation of the Dwarfs is quite familiar. An impatient and curious Aule created the first Dwarfs on his own because he was unwilling to wait for the Children of Iluvatar to arrive, and wished to share his craft and knowledge with others. Iluvatar found out, and bestowed the Dwarf fathers with their own sentience and a life outside of the will of Aule. The lesson here is, Aule could create the bodies of the Dwarfs and he could move them about by his own will, but only Iluvatar could bestow upon them their own the gift of an independent consciousness.
The creation of the Ents is significantly less dramatic, as written in the book. Yavanna, worried about the fate of her creations (specifically, the trees) at the hands of both the Dwarfs and the Children of Iluvatar, discusses the matter with Manwe. Faster than you can say “fait accompli,” Manwe tells Yavanna that there will be guardians and shepherds of the trees, although they will exist only while the Elves are still young and before Men reach their destined position as masters of Middle-Earth. The existence of these guardians (the Ents) was, in fact, preordained by the elements of Yavanna’s part within the Music of the Ainur. Apparently, Manwe perceives the will of Iluvatar enough on this particular point to make this pronouncement without any need to consult Iluvatar. Nor, apparently, was any further intervention on Iluvatar’s part necessary to provide the Ents with sentience.
Which brings up the following questions:
1. Aule made the Dwarfs, but his decision to make them would undoubtedly have been in the Music of the Ainur (if anyone feels they have evidence to dispute this point, go right ahead). Likewise, Yavanna’s song within the Great Music also foretells the coming of the Ents. Did Yavanna create the Ents without a conscious decision to do so? After all, she needed the help of Manwe to properly interpret the effects of her part of the Music.
2. Is there any significance in the fact that Iluvatar does not make a separate appearance to bestow an independent consciousness upon the Ents, as with the Dwarfs? Does this mean that Yavanna managed to create a species with independent thought on her own, a power denied to Aule?
3. Much time is spent discussing the eventual fate of the spirits of Elves and Men. A passing mention is made of the Dwarfs’ own belief in the fate of their own spirits. Do Ents even have spirits? If they lack spirits, is that due to the lack of intervention by Iluvatar? And, finally, if they do have spirits in a way analogous to Dwarfs, why is there no mention of their fate (even in passing, like the Dwarfs)?
I look forward to seeing everyone’s responses on this issue.
Look- he's trying to think!
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I'd love to join in CTS, but my memory is shoddy as hell, and I don't have my copy of Sil with me.
I just have a question... weren't the Eagles created about the same time as the ents, in order to watch over the other living things in Middle Earth, apart from trees?
I could (very, very easily) be wrong, but that was my memory of it.
 mindlessmunkey
you don't know how lucky you are being a munkey ~ because consciousness is a terrible curse
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CTS-1
(Wed Sep 10 17:42:00)
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"weren't the Eagles created about the same time as the ents, in order to watch over the other living things in Middle Earth, apart from trees? "
The Eagles answer to Manwe; my recollection is that they are specifically there to watch over evil and to serve as an instrument of Manwe's will.
Look- he's trying to think!
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mpanc1
(Wed Sep 10 17:39:01)
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I had to refresh my memory there- thought provoking question:
1.While the Music of the Ainur governs much of the future, there is still free will, which Tolkien stressed very much. It is not an absolute blanket which creates, essentially, zombies doing the bidding of a song. For the second part, I think you answered yourself. By having to have her thoughts interpreted, she did not make a conscious decision to make them. Remeber, the music was not the Ainur singing their wishes and they would come true. What was happening was, basically, that the essence of their skills and thoughts came out through song, and meshed together, to create the world. The Ainur didn't have the power to govern the future- their souls and skills made the Arda.
2. I never thought about that, but I feel that this was just an area where Tolkien didn't flesh out as much as he could have. Not much material is found on the history of the Ents.
3. Again, I think this is another area that Tolkien didn't flesh out. If you don't buy that, then it could be similar to Morgoth creating the dragons, even though they lacked souls. As far as I know, though, the Ents have souls, or Fea, as Tolkien called them. I think that the dwarves, knowing that Aule created them especially, never doing anything like it again, whereas Yavanna works with life and creation all the time, felt more special in there creation. Thats my theory!
What's your first name Mr. Burns--- I don't know.
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This message has been deleted by the poster
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CTS-1
(Fri Sep 12 10:58:49)
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Would it make sense that the Ents' (and Entwives') spirits are bound to the Circles of the Worls like the Elves are, or are specially partitioned, like the Dwarfs?
Another thought which just came up: when an Ent becomes tree-like, would it affect the Ent's spirit in any way? If an Ent truly became a tree, could its spirit vacate its body, leaving behind a living body that was, for all practical purposes, a tree?
Look- he's trying to think!
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1. Did Yavanna create the Ents without a conscious decision to do so? Well, let's go to Ainulindalë. The Ainur, at the direction of Ilúvatar, sang three melodies. Whether or not the Ainur sang exactly what Ilúvatar wished - if they were the offspring of his thought, how did they become individuals? - is unknown. If Yavanna created the Ents without a conscious decision, it would be when the Ainur were still singing separately and not in harmony or unison; once they started their music together, they became individuals and yet lost their uniqueness at the same time.
2. I think that just the fact that Yavanna's species is like the Firstborn of Ilúvatar - preserving nature, rather than destroying it and having advanced technology as the Dwarves did - influenced Ilúvatar's decision. Aulë's Dwarves are so very different from all other races, and they do not live harmoniously with nature, whereas the Ents are, figuratively speaking, walking and talking trees who protect forests.
3. Veeeery interesting... I think the Ents are one of Tolkien's greater mysteries; they're there for the symbolism and to make us scratch our heads! But anyway... I would say that every living creature on Arda has a spirit. Heck, even the non-living "things," like rivers, seem to have lives of their own. However, in regards to any Entish afterlife... I can't say. 
If you couldn't find any weirdness, maybe we'll just have to make some!
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Aule
(Wed Sep 10 23:40:27)
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This goes back to the question of fate versus free will. I believe that Illuvator, and the Music of the Ainur, put in place multiple possibilities rather than a fixed, predetermined course. I believe that everyone in Middle Earth had many choices within that framework. Illuvator knew all possible outcomes, but didn't know which would actually occur.
So, Yavanna did have freewill and created the Ents out of her own conscious decision, just as Aule created the Dwarfs.
Just because it isn't mentioned that Illuvator bestowed life and consciousness on the Ents, doesn't mean it wasn't so. In fact, if I remember correctly, Yavanna did not create the Ents, but merely requested them.
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CTS-1
(Thu Sep 11 05:44:13)
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I was under the impression that Yavanna did not so much request the Ents, as she created them as a product of her part of the Great Music and Manwe merely pointed out what was already fated.
Look- he's trying to think!
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Aule
(Thu Sep 11 08:01:40)
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Yes, you're right. I looked it up in the Silmarillion. She just asked Manwe about the trees, and he asked Eru. Eru told him that it was already a part of the music, and that Yavanna's voice would be heard, so to speak.
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CTS-1
(Thu Sep 11 16:25:43)
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And, while it is a well-taken point that Yavanna has a lot of experience creating living things, unlike Aule, her expertise never ran to creation of what we would call sentient life.And, while it is true that the Ents are uniquely connected to Yavanna's work, their intelligent self-awareness and free will set them apart.
So, that begs the question: would Yavanna's creation of the Ents be considered a conscious or an unconscious act?
Look- he's trying to think!
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"This goes back to the question of fate versus free will. I believe that Illuvator, and the Music of the Ainur, put in place multiple possibilities rather than a fixed, predetermined course. I believe that everyone in Middle Earth had many choices within that framework. Illuvator knew all possible outcomes, but didn't know which would actually occur."
That is a fantastic way of looking at it, Aule.
You may have just changed my life somewhat with those words of yours!
If you're curious, dig a little deeper....
There never was much hope: only a fool's hope
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Aule
(Sat Sep 13 13:29:22)
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Glad I could help, but I'm really just examining Tolkien's intentions here. I think it says something about Tolkien's belief about God, but it doesn't necessarily indicate what I believe. I'm not sure what I believe, except as indicated in your recent thread, that we do have choices and therefore at least some degree of free will.
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I need to learn mooooooore!!!
 weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
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BB-15
(Thu Sep 11 17:30:59)
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Hi CTS;
"Do Ents even have spirits? If they lack spirits, is that due to the lack of intervention by Iluvatar? And, finally, if they do have spirits in a way analogous to Dwarfs, why is there no mention of their fate (even in passing, like the Dwarfs)?"
This is one of those topics that requires further research. In the letters (I don't have my copy in front of me so, I'm doing this from memory), Tolkien was asked if the Ents ever saw the Ent Wives again. He speculated that they did but not in Middle Earth but in the afterlife; i.e. Ents have spirits.
As for the relationship between the music of the Ainur and the free will of the Valar, this has been discussed before. Does the music predetermine the actions of the Valar or is the music just an image of what might be? Or is it a combination of both? I think there are good arguments either way.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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bump bump bump
You want a piece of me? Ok but just a nibble
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sinaes
(Sat Sep 13 07:07:29)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
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sinaes
(Thu Oct 2 00:06:54)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
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sinaes
(Thu Oct 23 17:10:41)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless
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sinaes
(Fri Nov 7 01:45:56)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless
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